Feeling Like Roommates in Marriage: How Couples Slowly Drift Apart | S02E12

You remember when she couldn't wait to see you, when the sex was good and often, and she never seemed to mind if you disappeared for a weekend with your friends. Somewhere along the way, something changed, and now she feels less like the woman you married and more like the person you happen to share a house with. 

If you are living in an emotionally disconnected marriage and quietly Googling why it feels like your wife has become a roommate, this episode was recorded for you.

Dennis Procopio (The Bro Coach®) sits down with co-host Charles Ledbetter to talk about the slow, ordinary way couples drift into feeling like roommates in marriage, and why almost none of it happens on purpose. 

Charles names the pattern early, pointing out that men come out of the gate putting everything into the chase, dressed up, planning dates, bringing their best sense of humor, and once they get her, the effort quietly fades. 

Dennis has watched the same pattern from the other side across more than 25,000 hours of coaching, watching guys who did everything right still end up wondering when their marriage started to feel empty.

This one gets into the real mechanics of connection, starting with the point system Dennis has taught since the 90s from Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus. For most men, one grand gesture, a big trip or an expensive gift, feels like it should buy a hundred points. 

For most women, it buys exactly one, because in her world it is frequency that counts, not grandiosity. Dennis and Charles walk through what it actually looks like to start making deposits again, texting her back and forth, learning where the kids' laundry goes, remembering who her doctor is, and why going first without expecting anything back is usually what turns things around.

Dennis also opens up about a client who has done everything a coach could ask of him and still cannot get his wife to meet him halfway, and uses that story to walk through the three honest reasons connection dies in a marriage, going through the motions without really being present, trauma she brought into the relationship that has nothing to do with you, and resentment over something specific you may have actually done. 

He lays out what to do about each one, and the two options left once you've tried everything and nothing has changed.

Also: the point system explained with a Home Depot run in, the CSI toilet story, and why bathroom doors exist for a reason.

TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Cold Open: Welcome to the Bro Coach Podcast
0:57 - Today's Topic: Feeling Like Roommates in Marriage
2:26 - Why Complacency Creeps In After the Chase Is Over
7:21 - The Patterns After 25,000+ Hours of Coaching Men
10:01 - Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus and the Point System
16:43 - Frequency Beats Grandiosity
20:42 - A Client Story: When the Wife Feels Like a Roommate
26:35 - What He's Tried and Why Nothing Is Working
45:07 - What to Actually Do About It
48:43 - Two Choices When Nothing Changes
56:03 - The Three Reasons Connection Gets Lost
1:01:33 - If Your Wife Feels Like a Roommate, Start Here

WHAT YOU'LL LEARN

• Why the roommate feeling in a marriage almost never happens all at once, it erodes one small withdrawal at a time
• The point system behind Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus, and why frequency beats grand gestures every time
• What it actually looks like to start making deposits again once you feel the distance setting in
• The three honest reasons connection dies in a marriage, and how to tell which one you're dealing with
• Why going first, without expecting anything back, is usually what turns things around
• The two paths forward once you've tried everything and nothing has changed

THIS HITS IF YOU'RE

• Feeling like your wife has turned into a roommate instead of a partner
• Living in an emotionally disconnected marriage and can't pinpoint when it started
• Searching "disconnected marriage" at midnight because you don't know who else to ask
• Doing everything you know to do and your marriage still feels empty
• Successful everywhere except at home, and going quiet about it
• Not ready to give up, but not sure what to try next

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ABOUT THE SHOW The Bro Coach® Podcast with Dennis Procopio. Not red-pill garbage. Not therapy. Real coaching for guys who achieved success but missed the point. Dennis has 25,000+ hours working with high-earning men ($150K to $3M+) who look successful but feel stuck.

Transcript

Cold Open: Welcome to the Bro Coach Podcast

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Most men want more, more clarity, more respect, more control over their lives, but few know how to get it. Welcome to the Bro Coach Podcast with Dennis Procopio, the founder of Man Up Life Coaching and the man behind thousands of transformed lives. Not red pill, not therapy, just the evolved man's blueprint for strength, presence, and purpose.

SPEAKER_04 0:23

Hello, and welcome to the BroCoach Podcast. I'm Dennis Procopio. I am the host of the BroCoach Podcast, and I am here with my co-host, Charles Ledbetter, who is also a man who has come through Man Up Life Coaching, which is my organization, and has his own coaching practice in addition to being an entrepreneurial phenom in his own world. We're both men, we're both husbands, we're both fathers.

Today's Topic: Feeling Like Roommates in Marriage

SPEAKER_04 0:58

And today on episode seven of season two, we are going to discuss feeling like roommates in marriage, how couples slowly drift apart. Now I'm going to say that again. You're a man, you're in a relationship with a woman. You have been together for a while now. When you first started, she got the impression that you were this fun-loving romantic guy who liked going on dates and listening to her talk for hours and was really either empathetic or just a great listener. And you got the idea that she was just this chill, fun, loving chick who didn't mind if you went and hung out with your friends or uh, you know, went and played Call of Duty. Um you know she was always ready to go. The sex was hot and it was often, and somewhere along the way, something changed. Uh Charles, have you ever had that experience in your life?

Why Complacency Creeps In After the Chase Is Over

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Yeah, yeah, I mean, more or less. I don't know, but I I know plenty of men who have, and it's typically people get complacent, man. We we come out of the gate hot because it's like I'm trying to earn your love, right? And so we're we we're dressed up, we're fresh, we're taking care of everything, we're planning dates, we're just you know, our best sense of humor, we're willing to go the extra mile to make things happen and sacrifice just about anything just to have the relationship and get to see her again. And then over time, once you got her, it kind of changes all of a sudden, right? Absolutely and I've seen it happen in both directions. The same thing for women, right? I mean, they they come out wearing their best red dress and dress to the nines and looking all fine and doing everything they can and rubbing your back, and you know, and then somewhere down the road, all you get is PJs, right? Exactly makeup good way, and then right, and then it's like and then you find out for the first time that oh my god, my girlfriend shits. I didn't, you know, I didn't know that. Oh, I'm married to this woman. I didn't even know that she farted, and now she just farts in the bed with me all the time, you know.

SPEAKER_04 3:52

Real life, I mean, real life. That's right. I remember being younger, and if you didn't, if you weren't raised with sisters, um thankfully, I don't know if I should say thankfully, but a part of my experience was living with a single mom. And when you live with a single mom, you like it or not, you're gonna learn a lot about women. Um and and if you live with sisters, you're also gonna learn a lot about women. Um, but there are a lot of guys out there who come to coaching, and you're you're not wrong. Some of their ideas about what women are are really weirdly idyllic. And it's a real shocker for them to move in together and to discover her bras hanging and underwear or whatever, hanging in the uh shower, or her, you know, used feminine products in the you know, in the toilet, or she flirt gets to flush and it looks like a CSI scene, and you know, dudes aren't used to seeing blood in the toilet or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

Who died in here? Right. What what's are you okay? You know.

SPEAKER_04 5:19

Um and so yeah, we learn about each other, and in a best case scenario, that you know that close proximity is intimate and it makes us love each other more. Uh, then again, though bathrooms have doors for a reason, you know, there is a certain amount of privacy that we all sort of need, and there's a certain amount of mystery that we look for from a from a person that we're dating that isn't there when you've been with somebody for a significant period of time, and all of a sudden uh the situation has changed, and as you're saying, you know everything for better or for worse about this person. You see them when they haven't dyed their hair and done their makeup. They see you lying on the couch with your shirt up, your gut popped, and your hand down, your pants watching TV, chips all over your chest on your shirt.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

You know what I'm saying? Just burping and shit.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

Orange and Cheeto dust on the remote.

SPEAKER_04 6:44

So so so feeling like roommates in a marriage is a real thing. And for him, the experience can be something. And I'm when I say this, I'm not just hypothesizing. I like to remind people who are listening. Um it's not an understatement when I say that I have worked with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of men. That's actually accurate.

The Patterns After 25,000+ Hours of Coaching Men

SPEAKER_04 7:21

I've worked with an exponential number of guys over the past 14 years, more than 25,000 hours. And after a while, you start to see patterns, dude. And some of the patterns that you see are he feels like there's not as much physical intimacy as there used to be. So all of a sudden, he's aware of women out in the world while trying not to be covetous. Um, but he's got eyes. And he's seeing women on the beach, uh, in line at the freaking coffee shop, in Home Depot, uh, you know what I'm saying, at the freaking theme park. Like he's seeing women out there, and then it doesn't help that we have so much exposure to this glorified edging material that is in social media now, where everything in your news feed eventually, the algorithms are gonna start feeding you soft porn if you're a dude. They're gonna discover that your monkey brain is just gonna click on butts and boobs and a pretty smile. And before you know it, it kind of is on your mind, and you're ramped up and you're like, hey, I want sex. And I don't just want sex, I want you know, validating, you know, ooky bookie, me, love you long time, me so horny. You know, we want that, you know, little daddy's little girl, so to speak, persona that we all low-key are kind of attracted to in a sexual environment. And she wants romance. She wants you to be putting product in your hair and shaving and putting on your nice shirt and dressing up like you give a damn, like you did in the beginning. She wants you to be texting her back and forth and be trying to figure out what you're thinking, and you know, know that you're trying to figure out what she's thinking. She wants mystery, she wants romance, she wants a change of environment. She doesn't want to have gone from girlfriend to mild lady. That's not interesting for her, Charles.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Isn't am I speaking the true true here,

Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus and the Point System

SPEAKER_02 10:01

bro? I mean, absolutely, dude. I'm thinking about, you know, men are from Mars and women are from Venus. Yeah, he he talks about keeping score and the different ways that we keep score. And I think that's such a great illustration that I've used with other men uh to communicate the the the difference. I call it like keep putting money in the bank, right? So, like if if sex is an important thing, which for guys generally we care about it, right? Yep. And um, and it's not just the sex, but if it's the respect and the honor and the appreciation and those other things that we hold in high regard, well, and it's like, okay, how do I how do I create an environment where that's likely to come my way and I'm gonna get the thing that that I want and need? Well, it takes putting money in the bank. I I think that if I planned a big Valentine's Day, right? That like that's a huge thing. I spent a whole bunch of money on it, right? I cleared a whole bunch of stuff from my schedule. Um, you know, I I might have made sure the baby was taken care of for her, and I did all this stuff for this one big thing. For me, that should like that should be a hundred dollars in the bank. Um, but for her, it's one. Everything is just a dollar in the bank. Each time I touch her, each time I praise her, each time I challenge her, flirt with her, text her, you know, take the trash out for whatever, right? And um, and it's it's a completely different mindset. And men have a hard time shifting that way because we just have a different value scale. Um, and so getting getting men to shift into like, okay, how can I, if I know that like I want to feel connected to my wife and I know I'm gonna want sex down the road, how do I start putting money in the bank now so that when I'm ready to take a withdrawal, there's money there. You know what I mean? Right, right. Um, and that usually, you know, that does that ring, does that ring true? Does that make sense like for you? The yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:10

Yeah, so as you know, I've been you know, I've been using men are from Mars, women are from Venus as a um cornerstone of my coaching since the nineties, because while John Gray himself is, you know, just another dude out there who has his own problems, and in reality, he got divorced after he wrote that book, so it's kind of comical. Like, I'm still with mine, you know. So, but I do think that he said some good stuff. I think that he really said some stuff. And what you're what you're saying there, and you know, look, I have these clients who are like, oh, I think it's very regressive, I think it's very heteronormative. Okay, cool story, but I'm here to tell you, I've been coaching men long enough to know that there are some things that are absolutely true. It is absolutely true that most of my guys, if we're going to talk about the five love languages, most of my guys um tend to lean in the direction of wanting words of approval and physical touch. And that translates to like, oh, you're such a big, strong, smart man, you know. Uh you know, you're so smart, you're so brave, you're so handsome, you're the best, you know. Um, and boy, do I just want to, you know, do porn stuff with you because wow, that's just really interesting for me. Um gee daddy, you rack my world, you know. And and then, and then, you know, and and women learn how to play that stupid persona early on because they figure it out. Men like this, you know. Um, like a Venus flytrap wouldn't work if it were designed to look like your taxes, you know.

SPEAKER_03 14:28

Like they figure out, you know, what they figure out, you know, like nature Hey, wait a second.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Well, James, we'll just pause for everybody to digest that one. And then, all right.

SPEAKER_04 14:50

Yeah, I mean, Sumatra called it the tender trap for a reason, you know. So when women figure out, oh, I get it, men are dumb and basic, and they just want food and sex, and they want to be told that they're the best. Okay. And some women are are on on the other hand, are like, yeah, you know, if I have to do that, that's not interesting for me. So I'm going to try radical honesty and I'm gonna be authentic. And they try that for a while, and then they they see other women doing well, and they're not like, God dang it, fine.

SPEAKER_03 15:26

It's so big, it's the biggest I've ever seen, you know. And he's like, Oh, hell yeah. Let me let me start treating you nice and buying you stuff. Tell me more.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Even though I know you're lying, I'm still gonna do it.

SPEAKER_04 15:39

I'm still gonna buy you stuff. Tell me more about the chick you hate at work. There's nothing I'd rather listen to. You know, yeah. And oh, and then what did she say? And then what did you say? I'd rather listen to this than play Call of Duty. I'll tell you that right now.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Um Money in the Bank works for women too.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

Money in the bank, and so yeah, and so when this like no, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:06

No, I was gonna say, and so like when this dude, John Gray, when he wrote this book and he came up with this idea that you alluded to, which is this point system for anybody unindoctrinated, he just basically says, you know, fly her to, you know, Hawaii and throw rose petals all over the bed and you know, treat her to her favorite food, fly her best friends out, do this extravagant thing. In your world, that is high on the point system. That would last you for about a year.

Frequency Beats Grandiosity

SPEAKER_04 16:43

In her world, that's one point. One point, no matter how grandi is your gesture, frequency is more important than grandiosity. So if you bring home her favorite food, you get a point. If you text her a little heart when she is least expecting it, you get a point. If you buy her uh something really nice, and I mean really nice, you know, some freaking $9,000 dolce gabbana bag or some crap, you get one point, and that's enough to piss you off because you know that if she came home, you know, or you whatever, you came home and she were just wearing, you know, lingerie and handed you a plate of ribs and the remote and a cold beer and said, I want you to really enjoy yourself, and I'm just gonna go either hang out here real quiet and snuggle up to you and be your little cuddle bunny, or I'm gonna go do something that is totally gonna just keep me in a really good mood. And when you're done, let's go into the bedroom and make sweet love with that giant thing you're packing. Um, then you'd be like, at the you'd wake up in the morning, you'd be high-fiving your enemies, you'd be whistling, you'd be like throwing deuces to people, cutting you off in traffic, like, hey, what's up? All right, everybody. You'd that's a hundred points. Charles, am I right?

SPEAKER_02 18:18

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, man. Well, and so the effort matters. The the effort that we used to put in, it's gotta come back, and that's what we've got to help men understand. Uh that the funny thing is, is that what I've seen is when I've seen this distance and this chasm get created between two people, and everything's just kind of the romance has disappeared and died down, is that I I've seen men just go first, right? It's the uh just go first with giving the affirmation to her, with doing kind things for her, right? With filling her tank, filling her point system, putting money in the bank. And what I almost all the time see in response is the the woman begins to respond and change her behavior without being even prompted or requested, right? When all of a sudden the the men is taking the ownership of and the reason I'm talking about the men is because we're on the brocoach podcast. That's kind of you know, we're talking to the guys here and and your accountability and your responsibility. If you start taking accountability for it, right, right, right, right. Yeah, if you quit being the victim and going, man, she doesn't fucking dress up or get sexy or whisper that cool shit in my ear anymore, or whatever, food's never on here, or she always only wants to talk about her shit, she never wants to talk about anything interesting. Well, like, cool, okay. It's if as a challenge, and I've done this plenty of times, as a challenge for a week or 30 days, right? You take responsibility for doing all the things to meet her needs, to put money in the bank, and and don't require anything from her from it, and just see if her behavior changes every single time it gets results. Every single time she speaks up and goes, Wow, I really noticed you've been doing all this. This is kind of awesome. I really appreciate it. And then she makes some gesture of her own, right? Um, without a shadow of a doubt. Now you're not gonna you're not gonna get more out of a relationship than you're putting into

A Client Story: When the Wife Feels Like a Roommate

SPEAKER_02 20:42

it.

SPEAKER_04 20:42

That's right, that's right. And I'm gonna pivot because I have a client and I'm not gonna call him by name, obviously. Like, you know, put his personal information out here in the street, but he's gonna think that I'm he's gonna know I'm talking about him when I talk about him, and it's probably gonna be uncomfortable. But this is a guy I think about a lot. Okay, you and I are giving some very good high-level suggestions. If your wife feels like you're a roommate, I'm hearing a thunkin' by the way, just so you know, man. You're your your your mic's picking up some percussion there. Um your wife feels like you're a roommate, the number one reason, as we've discussed, is because she wants uh she wants reassurance constantly that you are that you care about the things she cares about, that you're aware of the stuff she's doing and you appreciate it rather than taking her for granted. Even if she takes the stuff you take you you're doing for granted. That's a separate conversation, but I'm just saying what she wants, you know, like the trash doesn't take itself out, right? The car doesn't change its own oil, you know, the freaking all the passwords for all the freaking computers and shit don't just magically happen. Somebody's taking, somebody's resetting the router, you know, all that. But but regardless of what you think it is that you do that she's not aware aware of or appreciative of, I'm talking about if you're knocking on a door and the door's not opening, it's because she's feeling like there is a need that you aren't meeting in the romantic department where she wants you to be more romantic. And romantic doesn't just mean like in the cartoons where dude like shows up with like flowers and candy and his nicest suit and some shit in his hair, you know, and a top hat and some tails, you know, some real Tom and Jerry shit. It it like it means more than that. It means like, hey, babe, like, how are you? Like, who are you? Like, I don't feel like we've really talked in a while. Like, you can tell me anything, even if it's that you hate me and think about leaving me. Like, I'm available to hear your thoughts and give you a place to feel safe. This is a word women use all the time. To feel safe. Not safe, I'll protect you from the bad guys, but emotionally safe to say anything that you want without getting shut down. And that's where I'm gonna pivot to this one client who I sort of alluded to. I've got a client, let me let me describe this guy. Handsome guy. Like, so handsome that dudes tell him he's handsome. Women are just like constantly going to his wife, going, oh my god, he's so handsome. How did you get that? And she's like, Yeah, I know. It like everybody says it. I get it. Yeah, he's handsome. Um brilliant. I'm telling you, this is a brilliant guy. I I'm I know smart people, and I'm telling you, this dude is a is definitely a brilliant guy. I don't use that term often. He's a brilliant guy. Wonderful father. Real, like again, I'm a dad, I'm saying homie is a wonderful father. Earns well. They live, you know, very well. There's money there. And he's he does the best he can to be nice because he's secretly not somebody who thinks of himself as handsome, not somebody who thinks of himself as making a whole lot of money, not somebody who necessarily thinks of himself as a great dad or a great person. He's a dude, and he's constantly thinking I could be doing better. So he's not full of himself at all. And he's a handsome, athletic, virile, high-test male who is going nuts because he's in a long-term marriage, and he's, you know, like he's not just uh getting out of the relationship isn't an option. He's not gonna bust up his home for religious reasons, for uh family reasons. And the closest he can get to having sex is with his wife is her saying, you know, like fine, let's do it and get it over with. And then complaining through the whole thing, like how much she doesn't like it. Now, listen, I know that there are women out there who have had sexual trauma. I actually come from a childhood of sexual uh, you know, predation. So I understand that. I'm not I'm not I'm not trying to victim shame somebody who has that in their history. But my dude is gridlocked into a relationship where, as a coach, literally every all the generic stuff that you and I are talking about, you know, put money in the bank, remember the point system, ask her

What He's Tried and Why Nothing Is Working

SPEAKER_04 26:35

how she feels, ask her if she needs to talk, pay attention to her love languages. She wants acts of service and quality time. You want you want touch and validation. Dude has like literally studied every book, gone to the top of every mountain, confronted every guru, and his truth is he's married to a woman who just thinks sex is gross and she doesn't like doing it, and she doesn't want it with him, and it just makes him feel like of all these women out here in the world, with everybody telling me how smart I am, how handsome I am, what a great dad I am, I get one woman, and you not only aren't meeting me happily in an intimate physical relationship, you're literally making me feel like a bad person, like I'm a dog who just shit on the rug when we have sex. Now, welcome to my world. What would you do in that situation? What's your I'm really putting the guy's truth out here because somebody out there might be like, okay, finally you're talking to me.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

Sure. What do you do there, dude? Well, I have questions for sure. Come on. I mean, like, like when did that start? Was that always the case? Because A, they have children, right? So I I can't help but think, okay, so there was a slippery slope of something taking place along the way, you know, that slowly chipped away at or eroded their physical intimacy, right? Or her desire. Now, I I'd be real curious, like, can we remember when this started?

SPEAKER_04 28:30

Right. So again, there, my my all the voices in my head are screaming, nuke this, nuke this, nuke this, nuke this, you're gonna get in trouble. Killing me softly with his song, you know, like I'm putting too much information out there. If my guy hears it, he's gonna be like, dude, it's obvious you're talking about me. What if my wife hears this? So I'm trying to be careful, but like, I feel like at the same time, I think about this guy a lot. Like, if I could give him one thing, it's like if you could save a cancer patient, or if you could bring somebody's dead parent back, or something like if I could just get out my magic wand and give this guy one thing, it would be for his wife to get over whatever her childhood trauma is, get over whatever her body dysmorphia is, embrace her sexuality in a way that makes her feel empowered, and learn how to have meaningful, intimate touch and cuddling and foreplay. We're not just talking up against a wall like monkey sex here, like like all the sweet stuff that it would take to kind of bring her out. And dude is so on board, man. Dude is on board. He's like, I will do anything, but it's just weird to me. And one of the challenges that he's up against is it's his perception that she's not a hundred percent honest with herself about the degree of trauma that's there. And so my suggestion is like, yo, this might be beyond life coaching, this might be something that heads in the direction of like some sort of, you know, psychiatric solution. And the problem there is if you've ever been a man in couples counseling, you've had the experience of the couple's counselor working really hard to win the wife over because he understands that she controls the dynamic here. Yeah, that we all just know. Like, if you're a dude, you know that. And I don't care if it's a woman or a man, it's always gonna be the dude is guilty until proven innocent. That's just how this shit goes. It's just like family court. And it it is what it is. I get it. Yeah, oh, it's a patriarchy. Okay, well, here's here's some things you don't know about being male.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Statistically, that's just what it is.

SPEAKER_04 31:24

It is what it is. So if these guys go to if these guys go to therapy, um the challenge that he has experienced before is he's like, she just doesn't tell the truth. He's like, therapist says, Do have you ever had any childhood trauma? And she says, no. And she has one of the worst childhoods I've ever heard from anybody in the world. What the fuck do I do with that on day one of therapy? And I'm sitting here praying to actual God over here, like, please create a miracle in this couple's life. I don't just mean this man's life. I'm not like sitting here saying, please, dear God, like, you know, like make her, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Can I ask some more questions? Because we'll race it here, man.

SPEAKER_03 32:17

Dude, welcome to welcome to welcome to our world. We're this is yeah. Daryl, what you got?

SPEAKER_02 32:25

It seems to me that there's got to be some level of underlying resentment and lack of respect. Like, like at some point, something happened and she lost respect. And and there's gotta be some some and this is just an opinion based off of what I've observed over the years, right? Is like some level of resentment that she's not willing to deal with or face, you know. That and the reason I say that, like what it I've had this situation. I don't know if you've had it, and I don't even know your feelings about this before. But I've had the situation where I've been working with a guy, and I, in particular, I am that kind of religious guy. Like, I don't think divorce is a good option. Like, I like it's it's the nuclear option to me. Like it has to be absolutely, and and so what I generally help men do is strengthen their romantic relationships. I help them reignite the flames with their their spouses or their significant others or the ones they've chosen for the moment. Um, but there has been situations before, though, where um I just spoke to a guy I used to work with yesterday, man, and he was calling to tell me um about how thrilled he was. He just got a promotion, and he's gonna be a seven-figure a year earner. And and that's from four years ago when he was living on a friend's couch, and now he's making a million plus a year, you know, and married to a beautiful woman who loves and respects and adores him and treats him all the ways he wants to be treated. And he's got a better relationship with his daughter. All that is coming off the tail end of when he was working with me, he was in a 15-year marriage that was abusive and neglectful. Um, and that was one of the few cases where I found my responsibility through this process of you know of process of elimination, that hey, it's like it's time to have some really difficult conversations to see if there is a willingness to go forward cohesively. And if not, it's time to exit. Like that's not a you know, or you just need to decide is this something you're just willing to live with for the rest of your life, you know. Um, and you know, it it was devastating at first, and it was difficult and emotional, and and you know, a profound shift uh uh, you know, in his paradigm in life, but it's also led to he's thriving, and his child is thriving, and like his business is thriving, and he's happier than he's ever been in his entire life, right? So sometimes if a person just shows zero willingness to do what's necessary to heal and deal in a relationship, then that has to just be acknowledged for what it is, and then it becomes a different conversation. It's it stops being, okay, how can I win this person over, or how can I, you know, influence their behavior or get them to respond in a healthy way to me to like, hey, there's gotta be a clear boundary set and a harder conversation have, you know, and and some consequences.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Hey man, stop spinning your wheels. If you're serious about leveling up your career, your relationships, and your mindset, it's time to man up. At Man Up Life Coaching, we cut the excuses and build discipline, confidence, and purpose. Book your free strategy session now at Manup Life Coaching.com slash application. Don't fill it out if you're not ready to grind, but if you are, this call could change your life. Man up life coaching. Elite life coaching for men by men.

SPEAKER_04 36:55

So I won't lie, I'm sitting here I'm sitting here thinking, have I said too much, have I said too much, have I said too much? Because this is su I mean, this is such a very specific situation that even though there's probably a bunch of guys out there that can relate to it, when it's about you, it feels like it's about you. And I'm like, man, am I gonna have to let dude listen to this before I let it out and say, are you okay with this? But I'm gonna double down on it and I'm gonna just I'm gonna follow my gut and I'm gonna say, without again, without giving enough information that it's like legally inarguable that it's this guy. Um this is a person who comes from a religious background and has no interest in a divorce having been married in the church, and who also does not want to bust up his home having, you know, kids who depend a lot on the institution of their seemingly stable household and having mom and dad as a unit. And so, as you know, we know that there are many women over the course of the, you know, decades, if not centuries, who have gone through entire marriages sexually and romantically unfulfilled, and just dealt with it because they did it for the kids. Um and they also did it because they didn't want to seem like a bad person. Um I think this gentleman in in question is someone who I mean, I know that I would do anything to keep my home together. I would do anything to keep my home together. You know, I don't want to not be together as a as a family. But as a coach, you said I don't know if you agree with this or you believe in this or whatever. Dude, I'm gonna be honest with you and tell you that I don't put divorce on the same sort of um value sort of setting on the slider as I would put something like abortion. I would be um I would sooner suggest that someone get a divorce than I would for them to suggest that they get an abortion. I just fundamentally don't like the idea of abortion. I I don't like it. I'm I'm not a fan. Um that having been said, I have historically voted pro-choice, and I have unfortunately, sorry, but I have unfortunately been the guy who paid for a couple of abortions. But as a grown man, um you know, when my partner Celia and I got pregnant with Bennett um after only three months of being together, we were both pro-choice at that time, and we both agreed I would not be able to live with myself knowing that I terminated this possible life. And we decided whether we stay together or not is a different story, but we're gonna go ahead and follow through with this kid. So Bennett turns 16 at on the 30th of this month, and we celebrate 17 years on August 15th. So we do a little quick map there, right? Yeah. Um, but as far as the divorce thing goes, um, as far as the divorce thing goes, I have been in situations with a client where he was being abused. He was being taken, he was being cheated on, he was being emotionally abused, and I'm talking about a big strapping macho man. I'm not talking about some little pussy motherfucker, I'm talking about like a big ass man. People don't get it. They're like, oh, that's so beta. You know, it's not, dude. You don't get it. A woman, it's like Samson and Delilah, a woman can break a man. Yeah, like and if you and if you don't understand that, then you're stupid. A woman can 100% break a man. Period. Absolutely. A woman can break a man. Um, a woman is is strong, a woman is resilient, and a woman is determined, and a woman can break a man. And this woman broke this man and had him totally strung out. And after working with him for we still work together more than 10 years later, off and on. I mean, it hasn't been straight through, but he came back and we're working together again. And uh all his kids are growing in in college and everything. But anyway, this this guy that I'm thinking of, this second guy that I'm alluding to, he needed to get divorced. There was just no two ways about it. And he did, and he married the woman he's with now, and she is a blessing, and they lived happily ever after. And I would hate to think of him still in that old relationship with that, frankly, very broken and complicated and toxic woman that he was with. So, as far as this fella goes, it's a bummer because there isn't really enough grounds to just divorce because she's fine. But this is a dude who doesn't feel especially good about his body when he I'm telling you, like, not in a gay way, but I'm just saying, dude is like a like he's a he's a he's a unit. He's he's a very physical, physical guy. And he looks like a handsome dude. He would be probably an eight and a half by most women's standards. And because there's no such thing as a ten and women's standards.

SPEAKER_03 44:03

That doesn't exist right it doesn't exist, it doesn't exist, dude. It doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_04 44:11

So and I'll even go a little further and say that I met with her because I've I've been known to do that. That's uh kind of an in and out sort of hidden menu item. I do meet with women and do couples counseling, but I don't put it on the menu. But that's a thing that we do, and so met with her, and when I met with her, she was like, Yeah, it's all in his head. I would be totally, totally down and totally into it. But after feeling this thing out for a while, I've come around and I'm like, I think dude's telling the truth, and I think she's she's complicated. So here we are. You're feeling like roommates in marriage. I guess this is where you say, hey, there is a point at which there are right things that you can

What to Actually Do About It

SPEAKER_04 45:07

try. We talked about them in this call. You can ask her what her needs are that she feels aren't being met and write it down. And if you can't decipher it, bring it to somebody like me or Charles. Right? Don't go to your friends, they're stupid. Go to a they're well-intentioned, but they're gonna give you bad advice. Sorry. Go to go to a coach who specializes in, you know, relationship healing, repair, and wellness and betterment. That's not gonna throw her under the bus and go, well, she's a dumb cunt. You know, that's not what we're looking for. But go to somebody who will say, hey, she has needs. You got provide, protect, perform down, but you need to work on respect, empathy, and presence. Um, she's telling you that. You're saying, uh-huh-uh-huh, but you're not actually doing it. Here are some tools, here are some practices. And those are things like ask her if she needs to talk. When she listens, or excuse me, when she talks, listen. Don't defend, don't contradict her, don't say, well, actually, just listen. Recognize that feelings aren't facts, her feelings are valid. If she says she wants to kill you, it means she feels like she wants to kill you. Not that there's a literal threat. She says she wants to leave you, it doesn't mean she's gonna leave you. It means that she can't leave you because she loves you, which is why she's telling you she's freaking frustrated with you. And all she wants you to do is say, that sounds really like a lot. I'm really sorry. Let's work on it. So this is what Charles and I are telling you. Um, if you want sex, more quality time, more acts of service, more conversation, more romance, more presence, and make her feel like she's sharing an experience with you, that she's in the relationship with another friend with benefits because she'll she's interested and you know, it works on both sides. Um, you know, it we we're humans, we like sex usually. But if you are in a relationship like this poor guy that I keep talking about, that is a one-off, where either, like in my guy's case, where you're doing all the things and she's saying, I appreciate your efforts, but I'm just sorry, I'm not feeling it. Or if you're with someone, I have a client that's I have another client. I said, Well, why don't you try taking her out on dates? No, she doesn't want to take go out on dates because she says she doesn't trust me, she doesn't like me, she doesn't feel close to me. Have you tried picking up some extra chores? Yes. Have you tried telling her she's beautiful and complimenting her and and being real careful not to criticize her? Yes. Have you tried making sure you're not doing anything toxic? Yes. I think she just hates me for some reason. She's got a lot of resentment. She's done, she's cooked, she doesn't, she doesn't want to, she doesn't like me, but she's stuck because we have kids and we're very religious, and there's no way this is a Jewish family. They're orthodox, and there's no way they're getting divorced, period. So, what do you do when you're the guy who's one of these dudes that we're talking about? Where everything that you're offering isn't working. You

Two Choices When Nothing Changes

SPEAKER_04 48:43

have two choices, huh, Charles? One, you can say to yourself, this sucks, but I'm committed to the institution of marriage, and I don't want to be someone who divorces. That's not interesting for me. I also don't want to bust up a family. And so I am just going to accept that I am in a relationship that doesn't check all the boxes, but I'm gonna stoically just kind of move through this and try to get happiness from nature, try to get happiness from exercise, try to get happiness from my engagement with my children, work on myself and make myself look as attractive as possible. Um and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna cheat on her because that's just how I how I rock. And I'm just gonna say, I don't know why God or the universe or however you want to put it, put me in this situation. Maybe it's some kind of test, but I'm not getting divorced, I'm not breaking up my my happy home as far as my children are concerned. And if my wife and I have to just be pleasant with each other at best, then I'm gonna keep trying to be the man she needs me to be. And if it doesn't come around, then I guess daddy just took one for the team. And that sucks, but that is a possibility. And the uh, but and that needs to be in here, otherwise, there's gonna be who's somebody who says, I tried all your little coaching shit and it didn't work. Now what? Like my client, and the other alternative is maybe I need a new religion because I'm not doing this shit. Maybe today's the day I become a Buddhist because I'm not I'm not trying to do this anymore, man. This is not okay. Well, my you know what? Maybe my kids will be nice and happy coming over to daddy's place and nice and happy going to mommy's place. And when they meet daddy's new girlfriend, they'll feel the love, and that will actually add value to their life. Rather, that'll add joy to their life. And I have those clients too. I have a client right now, he's got three daughters. He's a he he you know, he he got divorced. It was brutal. He then had a girlfriend that also went south, came to man up life coaching. Now he has the most awesome woman in the world. I can't wait for them to get married. And his three daughters love, and I mean love, his girlfriend who's clearly his fiancee. They're all living together. I could literally cry actual tears thinking of joy, thinking about how much this man has been through and how happy his life is now. And and he is religious. So I don't know, Charles, what do you think, man? What do you think about everything I've said?

SPEAKER_02 51:56

Oh, brother, I think, you know, there it is always worth going on a fact-finding mission and doing some inventory anytime when you're presented with a difficulty like this in life, you know. And usually how I encourage men is first do your own inventory. You know, that's real. Okay. Yep. Am I putting money in the bank? Am I doing the things? Am I being honest with myself? Because a lot of times I'll say or I'll think I'm doing the things and I'm I'm not. I'm missing the connection with her. I'm not really being present, I'm not really listening to what she's saying to me. Um, so always do the inventory and the fact-finding mission on yourself first, but then it becomes invite them into the process. One of the things that I knew I had a keeper and my wife was so I was reading Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus, and she was like, huh. Hey, what's that? I was like, Well, you know, I work with this coach and this is an important book, and it's talking about the difference between masculine and feminine energy and how men and women and relate and relationships and and connect and communicate differently. And I'm just trying to learn about and get educated about this. She was like, Okay. And three days later, I saw her reading the same book.

SPEAKER_03 53:23

Yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 53:24

You know what I mean? And I was like, okay, she gets it, you know. And I knew I'd had someone who was moving in the same direction with me. And then if I saw something as important, it was important to her also. Right. And that's continued to be a theme throughout our relationship. And I find with most men, if there's if we're finding there's something that's important to me or to you that's not important to her, you may need to go on a fact-finding mission and figure out why. Generally speaking, when you love someone and you care about them, if something's important to them, you're willing to make some space for it and it become important to you, especially if it's the closest person to you in your entire life. And if it's not, then then why is it that they don't why is there a uh is it trauma? Is it right? Did I did I do something? Did I actually do something to cause this personally? Right, right, right, right. Because like, and you just maybe don't know how to say it, and maybe I haven't asked enough questions or maybe you just have a safe enough place to talk about it, or you feel like I'm gonna lay in to you if you tell me the truth, right? Or you feel like it's just not worth it anymore, right? But like there needs, in my opinion, there's just we need to go on a fact-finding mission. And and if if it's hey, this is do or die, and we said that and we meant that, and hey, I'm not changing religions and I'm not giving up, one of us are gonna fucking die, you know, in this relationship, then it's like, all right, cool. Then let's go on a fact-finding mission and just spend time getting to know this person a year again, because over five, 10, 15 years, I don't know who I'm with, obviously, because I don't understand why you don't care about something that's so important to me.

SPEAKER_04 55:33

That's right. I think you said something in there that I I wanna I I'm aware of time. I know we got about eight minutes here. Um, but I want to circle back to something that you said. You said you made a distinction between three things. One was maybe I'm going through the motions, but I'm just I'm I'm I'm doing it robotically, but I'm not

The Three Reasons Connection Gets Lost

SPEAKER_04 56:03

really present, right? Like I know, I remember being in bed with women and literally stopping and kind of just putting a hand on either side of her face and looking at her and going, are you here? Yeah, never go, what? And being like, I don't know. I just kind of feel like you're like, oh yeah, oh yeah, or whatever. And you're like, but you're not, I don't feel like you're really here with me. Like, yeah, like I'm not just trying to fuck somebody, I'm trying to like make love to you. Like, are you here? Yeah, and and that can happen in marriage.

SPEAKER_02 56:38

Like, that's what I'm saying. Like we're we're showing up, we're ticking boxes, but the actual connection, the thing that fuels us, that's that's at the center of of life, period, right? It's like, no, no, no, that thing's missing, and we have to we have to talk until we figure out why. It's the connection. The whole point is the connection. It's the connection. It's the whole point.

SPEAKER_04 57:08

It's the connection. And so and so where was the connection lost? Right.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

So let me circle back to those three things.

SPEAKER_04 57:15

I was gonna talk about. The one was that you might be phoning things in, doing it robotically, but failing to make the connection. That was one thing that you said. The second was um she may have some trauma. And that's not your fault. You just you can't go get a rescue dog and expect it to act like a, you know, like a dog that doesn't have a past. You know what I mean? I mean, I have a real nice I'm I'm I'm not comparing women to dogs, but I'm just saying, like, my my dog Hannah is just a sweetheart in a million years she would never bite me. I could do anything to her, she would never bite me. That's just not who she is. But I've had dogs that were beat up and they'll love you just fine, but there's a point at which they click and that trauma clicks in, right? And then I've seen some dogs that are just not tameable. They're like, you know, fight, you know, fight dogs, or or you know, they've got PTSD from some, you know, real bad experience, and they're just not they're not people dogs. So sometimes you will end up in a relationship with somebody who wants to be in a relationship so bad that they successfully fake being able to have a relationship, and then they finally give up and they can't do it anymore, and they will gaslight the hell out of you and tell you you're it's all your fault because they don't want it to be, they don't want it to be that it's their trauma and that they're broken and that they're the problem. And so I have several clients who are in that situation where she's broken, she's gaslighting him, he's simping for her, and the reality is no, it's you, and either go to therapy and fix your shit, or I don't know, I can't do this anymore. And that's fair. I'm sorry, but that is fair. Um, but then the third thing you said, which I wanted that was the whole reason that I circled back, was but make sure it's not something you did that she has resentment for, and that's huge. That's huge. I have a guy who is finding out that after 20 years of being married, his wife literally started resenting him the day he joined the military and shipped off. And they got buku kids, and they're like all the way deep into being married, and they're very like religious and legalistic about their faith, and there's no way in the world they're getting divorced, but her resentment is extreme, and in my working with him, I've finally gotten him to realize dude, she was kind of trying to tell you for 20 years that she was unhappy, and you played the I'm the man, large and in charge, father knows best role. She sucked it up, but now you're dealing with a woman who isn't, you know, in her 20s anymore. She's in her late 40s or mid to late 40s, and she's saying, Yeah, I'm mad. Oh, you want to have sex? Huh. Interesting. I wanted to have a relationship for 20 years. And that is that is a tough one. So if you're in a relationship where you're trying to, if you're in a relationship where you feel it slipping away, um, and I guess I'm playing this off stage. If you're in a relationship to oh, let me let me give you some key

If Your Wife Feels Like a Roommate, Start Here

SPEAKER_04 1:01:33

words. If your wife feels like a roommate in your marriage, if you feel emotionally disconnected, if your marriage feels empty, if you're feeling like roommates in your marriage and you're slowly drifting apart, if this is your you found this because you were Googling for this, because this is your situation. Well, what Charles and I have spent the past hour talking about is one, if you're if it's just starting to cool down a little bit and you feel it, brother, you better get ahead of it and you better start, as he said, putting money in the bank. And her bank, her piggy bank only takes one dollar at a time. So if you're trying to get a hundred dollars in love equity into that bank, then you better start sending a lot of notes saying I love you, asking her if she needs to talk, washing her dishes, learning where the kids' laundry goes when it gets folded, maybe fold it yourself, figure out who your kids' doctors are, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:01

Figure out what schools they go to, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:06

Right, get on the same page extreme shit. Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:10

Walk walk a mile in her shoes, not her high heels, but walk a mile in her shoes and understand why she's in sweats with her, you know, legs unshaved and her hair all caddy wampous. It's because she's given up because she feels alone and frustrated. Catch up, help her. If you're looking for physical touch and words of validation, then you can validate her by giving her constant reassurance that you love her, that you appreciate her, that you're thinking about her, and that your acts of service demonstrates that you understand how tedious her job is and that you're trying to help. If you're someone who is, it feels like you're too far gone and you're in a sexless relationship and you can feel that the resentment is there, either it's attention that's so thick you could cut it with a knife, or she's just straight out said, I don't feel close to you, I don't like you as a person, I don't feel any love for you, I'm just in this for the kids, and because I don't believe in divorce, then you need to figure out for yourself, did I do this? Did I do this? And if you can talk to her and ask her and get her to tell you what it is that you did and listen without defending and without prejudice and try to fix it, if you can fix it on your own, fantastic. If not, come holler at one of us, man. We got you. Yeah, right? Come holler at us. Or go to marriage counseling. I don't care. I'm not trying to get your money, I'm just trying to fix your shit. And the third option, if you're in a situation where it's really not you, it's her, and you're sure of it, like you're sure, sure. Your friends are telling you, your family's telling you, your your rabbi or your or your priest or your pastor is telling you, um, then you have two choices. Stay for the family, take it on the chin, and just just accept that this is your this is your lot, and just man up and just carry your family on your back. Or it might be time to talk about what changing your situation looks like. Charles, have I said anything wrong in this call, man? No, it's pretty good, man. Thank you. Uh your input is good too. Um all right. Well, listen, it's kind of a sober note to leave you guys on. Um, but I don't think it's really like a a shuck and jive moment here. So I'll just say if this hits you in your heart and if you're ready to make a change, man, for one thing, please continue to follow the Broadcoach podcast because uh we're here doing stuff to help you as a man to stay alive. We're trying to reduce the male suicide rate. We're trying to make sure that you don't feel alone. So you can come ride with us, man. Um, we want to be your friend and we want you to know that we understand. Um, and if you do feel like you need help, um hit one of us up or find any other coach who works with men because that might be the solution to your problem. Um, that's it for uh this episode of The Bro Coach. Um we love you, bro, and we'll see you guys on the next one.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:48

Love you guys.