Conflict Avoidance in Marriage, Why Men Shut Down During Arguments | S02E07

Most men don't shut down during an argument because they don't care. They shut down because they care too much and don't have the tools to stay in the room.

In this solo episode, Dennis Procopio, The Bro Coach, digs into one of the most common patterns he sees after more than 13 years and 25,000 hours of coaching men: conflict avoidance in marriage, and why so many high-functioning guys completely shut down the moment their wife says, "We need to talk."

Dennis breaks down the real reasons this happens, starting with the way most men have been hardwired to operate as providers, protectors, and performers. When she's unhappy, the first thing you feel isn't indifference. It's threat. Because somewhere in the back of your mind, her unhappiness means you failed. And since you don't have a fix, you go silent, hoping it blows over.

 It doesn't blow over.

This episode walks through what's actually going on under the surface, including why she comes in with an escalated tone (and why that's not the attack you think it is), the Laurel vs. Yanny problem at the root of most marital arguments, and what men want from a relationship versus what women actually need and why those two things are on a collision course if you don't address them.

Dennis also gets into the REP framework he coaches men on in 2026: Respect, Empathy, and Presence. These aren't soft skills. They're the three things the modern marriage demands that your grandfather never had to develop, and that most men are completely unprepared to offer.

You'll hear Dennis on the difference between cognitive empathy (sympathy in disguise) and real empathy that puts you in the room with her, the male loneliness epidemic and why so many men self-medicate instead of communicate, and the one counterintuitive move that immediately changes the dynamic with a conflict-avoidant wife.

 If you've ever retreated to the garage, the Xbox, or doom-scrolling until she finally stops talking, this episode was built for you.

IN THIS EPISODE:

- Why men feel physiologically threatened when their wives are unhappy

- The Yanny vs. Laurel problem: how two people can be completely right and completely at war simultaneously

- What she actually needs when she comes to you with a complaint (and why solving the problem is the wrong move)

- The provider-protector-performer identity trap and how it sets men up to fail emotionally

- The difference between sympathy and empathy, and why your wife can tell the difference in about three seconds

- Why retreating regulates you but destroys her, and how to negotiate that honestly

- The one question you should be asking her preemptively every week

RESOURCES:

Free 30-Minute Strategy Session: manuplifecoaching.com/application

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The Bro Coach Podcast on YouTube: youtube.com/@manuplifecoaching

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Dennis Procopio is the founder of MAN-UP! Life Coaching and The Bro Coach®, a men's coaching practice based in San Diego with clients across the United States and internationally. He has worked with thousands of men over 15 years, with over 25,000 hours of direct coaching experience.

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ABOUT THE SHOW The Bro Coach® Podcast with Dennis Procopio. Not red-pill garbage. Not therapy. Real coaching for guys who achieved success but missed the point. Dennis has 25,000+ hours working with high-earning men ($150K to $3M+) who look successful but feel stuck.

Transcript

00:00:00:07 - 00:00:23:15
Andrew
Most men want more. More clarity. More respect. More trouble over their lives. But few know how to get it. Welcome to the Pro Coach podcast with Dennis Procopio, the founder of Man Up Life Coaching and the man behind thousands of Transform Lives. Not red pill, not therapy. Just the evolved man's blueprint for strength, presence and purpose.

00:00:23:17 - 00:00:57:17
Dennis
Hello and welcome. I am Dennis Procopio, the owner of Man Up Life Coaching in San Diego, and this is the Pro Coach podcast. I am the affectionately named Rocco, the guy who coaches you with all of the intention of getting you from one side to the other, just like any good counselor or mentor. But we put the bro in there because I'm your bro.

00:00:57:18 - 00:01:34:16
Dennis
I believe in brotherly love, and I am not just going to tell you to get yourself out of the jam you're in. I am going to help you. And today I'm flying solo. Our topic is marriage more. What happens in marriage when men are conflict avoidant? Why do men shut down during arguments? I've been coaching guys for many years and this is something that comes up a lot.

00:01:34:18 - 00:02:18:23
Dennis
Women complain that men don't listen. Women complain that men try to solve their problems instead of just listening and understanding. Women complain that men lack empathy. Women complain that men do not realize their privilege. The fact that they are male makes them and gives them a sort of a blind spot for the female experience and how being female in a historically patriarchal society makes them a second class citizen.

00:02:19:00 - 00:02:39:09
Dennis
Women complain that men don't appreciate how hard they've had to work through the rights, that they have the right to smoke cigarettes, to wear pants, to talk back to their husband rather than play obedient wifey.

00:02:39:11 - 00:02:46:17
Dennis
Because there is this history, there is a lot of.

00:02:46:19 - 00:03:14:03
Dennis
I guess, tension in a relationship from the very beginning. When a woman comes to the man with an argument, well, not with an argument. Philosophically speaking, I guess it is an argument. She's bringing something to the guy and she wants to discuss it. She wants to share her perspective, and she wants to be heard and understood. Let's create a tangible example.

00:03:14:05 - 00:03:23:10
Dennis
Or not technically tangible. I guess we could just say some low hanging fruit here. A very accessible example.

00:03:23:12 - 00:04:13:07
Dennis
A man and a woman, or married or living in the family way. They have a domestic relationship. Maybe it's a long term girlfriend, but they've been together for a while and she comes to him while he's doing either something or absolutely nothing and says, I think we really need to talk now. You're a male listener. When you hear her say in a tone that hits you in a certain place in your gut and your brain that says retro, this doesn't sound like it's going to be a good conversation.

00:04:13:09 - 00:04:45:11
Dennis
I think I might be a bad dog again. The first thing that happens is you put your your shields up, you put your defenses up, you start to withdraw. Notice that I'm not saying this with soft words like you might. You may, but instead I'm saying this is what you do. And more than 13 years and 25,000 hours of sitting in this chair coaching men.

00:04:45:12 - 00:05:23:10
Dennis
I have enough data to tell you that this is what men historically do. She comes crashing through the wall like, hey, Kool-Aid, and says, we need to talk. And immediately, just like poking a clam, you pull into yourself and you brace yourself. Now, let me ask you a question. You know that you do it, but do you fully understand why you do it?

00:05:23:12 - 00:05:28:14
Dennis
Some people would say.

00:05:28:16 - 00:05:54:24
Dennis
Yeah, I'm just in the middle of something. And she comes crashing in with all that noise, and I can't really think about that right now. So I have interruption, rage. I was just doing something or I was in the middle of a thought, or I was just trying to chill. And she comes in once again with some sort of manufactured complaint, and I feel like she's just trying to start some shit and I don't have time for all that.

00:05:54:24 - 00:06:09:11
Dennis
So I'm going to do the right thing and I'm just going to do my best John Wayne, my best Clint Eastwood. And I'm going to sit stoically until she stops talking.

00:06:09:13 - 00:06:40:10
Dennis
Okay. Well, let's see how that plays out. Little pantomime. Hey, we really need to talk. Are you listening to me? Yep. Okay, well, I just want to say that I've been feeling a little unappreciated lately. And. Are you on your phone? No. I'm fine. I was just checking something. Can you actually be present for our conversation instead of, like, multitasking?

00:06:40:10 - 00:07:16:14
Dennis
Seriously? That's disrespectful. I heard every word you said. You just said that you're unhappy. No, that's not what I said. What I said was, I feel like I'm unappreciated in this relationship. And you're demonstrating it. Okay, seriously, do you even care? Like, why are we in a relationship if this is how you're going to act? I'm. Look, I'm not trying to get into an argument here.

00:07:16:14 - 00:07:37:22
Dennis
I'm not trying to get into an argument. But you're like, you like, hello? Can. Can we be in a relationship or do I just live here and, like, take care of everything for you because I'm some made that you also have sex with? Is that our dynamic? Like, seriously? No, I don't. That's not how I feel. Okay, well, that's how I feel.

00:07:37:23 - 00:07:42:17
Dennis
Do you understand that?

00:07:42:19 - 00:08:25:24
Dennis
Yes. Sure. All right. Fine. I mean, I do stuff, too, like I work. Oh, you want to compare what you do to what I do? Just listen to the sound of this fictitious argument. Because this is basically the model for how most couples, unfortunately, communicate with each other. From the beginning, she has an escalated tone. She has an escalated tone because she comes in assuming, based on experience that she's not going to get what she needs, but she can't just sit by and say nothing.

00:08:25:24 - 00:09:01:02
Dennis
So she's coming in exasperated because she's it's kind of like trying to return an item without the receipt. And you go in and you say, I need to return this, and I don't have the receipt, but I need to return this. And your your energy is already ratcheted up because you're anticipating a negative response. That's her. Now your perception is like, maybe if you didn't sound like a bitch all the time, maybe there would be a chance.

00:09:01:03 - 00:09:34:14
Dennis
I'm not calling women bitches. I'm using language that speaks to the male perspective. And if you don't get that, then that's a you thing. But this is what men's experience is from the male perspective. Men just want three things. Men want loyalty. Men want validation rather than criticism, and men want peace. So this is two of those three things are being threatened here.

00:09:34:14 - 00:10:09:11
Dennis
And very often she will threaten the first thing as well. Maybe we shouldn't be in this relationship anymore. Maybe I should find it from someone else if you don't care. So typically, an argument can threaten the three. The very three things that a man once in need to loyalty, validation rather than criticism and peace. So I guess the question that we need to ask ourselves here is, does she feel the same way?

00:10:09:11 - 00:10:44:13
Dennis
Is that what's interesting for her or those her priorities loyalty, validation and peace? Truth is actually not. Actually not. I mean, sure, she wants you to be loyal. Meaning she wants you to love her, not somebody else. But for her. Love involves communication. Love involves a shared experience. Love involves you appreciating her perspective just as she works really hard to try to appreciate yours.

00:10:44:14 - 00:11:36:18
Dennis
Keyword try and where fights happen, but is when. Oh and peace. And yeah, she wants peace, but she's happy to go there. She's happy for there to be some drama. If the drama means that she doesn't feel isolated. So where fights tend to happen is where two different perspectives result into different perceptions, and each person is arguing that their perception is the right perception and the other person feels invalidated, which makes them feel isolated.

00:11:36:18 - 00:11:43:15
Dennis
It makes them feel gaslit. It makes them feel threatened. I'm going to give you an example.

00:11:43:17 - 00:12:22:07
Dennis
Around 2018, the now I conic black dress. Well, I guess it's blue and black dress versus white and gold dress. A meme started circulating to this day. Post a picture of that and it will immediately divide people into two groups. Those who see a blue and black dress. Those who see a white and gold dress.

00:12:22:09 - 00:12:49:10
Dennis
For the people who see a blue and black dress, there is no argument. The mentality is it's a blue and black dress, and if you don't see it, that's on you. But you're wrong. And all of my people over here are here to tell you you're wrong. And then for the white and gold people, it's exactly the same thing.

00:12:49:12 - 00:13:14:13
Dennis
It's here's a white and gold dress. It's inarguable. Here are a bunch of people to tell you that you're wrong. And now, I guess the only way we resolve this is it's a Hatfield McCoy situation. The only way we resolve this is a war, because you're telling us we're stupid and we're wrong and you're stupid and you're wrong.

00:13:14:15 - 00:13:31:08
Dennis
Now, in the case of the dress, it actually is a blue dress with a black trim. We know this because the lady who posted the picture.

00:13:31:10 - 00:13:53:19
Dennis
Shared more pictures of the dress and it is inarguably, objectively blue and black. However, there is a scientific explanation for why certain people perceive it the other way, and their perceptions are valid based on the way they see.

00:13:53:21 - 00:14:29:01
Dennis
There is a similar meme again that came out around 20 2018, which was the audio file. That either sounded like it was saying Laurel or Yanny. Now this one's not as popular, but I like this one because there is no objective right answer for some people, regardless of the device this file was played on. Some people heard Laurel.

00:14:29:03 - 00:14:31:10
Dennis
Laurel, Laurel.

00:14:31:16 - 00:14:34:09
Dennis
And some people heard Yanni.

00:14:34:14 - 00:14:38:01
Dennis
Yanni, Yanni.

00:14:38:03 - 00:15:01:19
Dennis
My partner will be and dragged me out of bed to come. Ask me to listen to this and tell me what I heard. And I said, I don't know. It's some dude saying Laurel over and over. And she said, oh my gosh, that's fascinating. Seriously? I said, yeah, why? She's like, I hear Yanny. And immediately I said, you hear Yanny?

00:15:01:20 - 00:15:40:18
Dennis
It's clearly a dude saying, Laurel. And then she shared with me, this is this enormous internet debate now. It later got my want to say sort of explained slash debunked a and the explanation was it's just a weird thing where it neither says Laurel nor Yanny. It's just a snippet from a larger file, and it contains enough information for certain people to hear Laurel and certain people to hear Yanny based on their perceptive apparatus.

00:15:40:20 - 00:16:05:19
Dennis
And some people are more sensitive to some frequencies that they're going to. I guess, cognitively pre-selected and vice versa. So what you have here is exactly what happens in an argument. In an argument, you get either.

00:16:05:21 - 00:16:15:12
Dennis
I hear Laurel or I hear Yanny. Nobody is absolutely right.

00:16:15:14 - 00:16:35:11
Dennis
So when she says it's Yanny and you're trying to gaslight me, when you say it's Laurel and he says, it's Laurel, and I don't know where you're getting this Yanny thing from your nuts. You're just a crazy chick. Go, you know, tell that crap to a therapist. But it's Loral and me and all my boys are here in Laurel.

00:16:35:11 - 00:17:07:06
Dennis
So it's you. You're stupid. Now you have the grounds for a war. If there were a person in there, let's call them. Oh, I don't know, a relationship counselor. They might look at this objectively and do the, you know, perform due diligence and find out. Oh, it's actually both. And explaining this to both people is going to be a challenge.

00:17:07:07 - 00:17:53:10
Dennis
Well, your woman isn't here, but I am explaining to you that when you think you're right, you may be missing information. And when she thinks she's right, she may be missing information. The fact is, you might both be right, but not absolutely right. And you can both be right and discover. While there's another way of seeing this, there's another way of hearing this.

00:17:53:12 - 00:18:13:09
Dennis
But to do that requires that you let go of a certain amount of stubbornness. Now I'm going to stop for a second, and I'm going to compare this to politics in the US right now.

00:18:13:11 - 00:19:08:23
Dennis
We have historically had a two party system. Our two parties have been driven to extreme polarized opposite positions. We're on the left. You have the ultra liberal, and on the right you have the ultra conservative. Each party is being fed narratives that reinforce a perception. One is being reinforced that it's Yanny and anybody who says otherwise it's wrong and the other is being told it's Laurel and I'll die for this.

00:19:09:00 - 00:20:08:07
Dennis
And then there are those of us in the middle who see arguable talking points on both sides, and we are just trying to facilitate communication between these divided groups, because we think maybe there is a third way of looking at this that gives us the peace that we need and this, that deescalate this perpetual mutual attack. Right. And that is why, for the record, I believe that in this culture, being a patriot is a lot better of a play than being a party loyalist.

00:20:08:09 - 00:20:47:15
Dennis
And I think a lot of people who are party loyalists mistakenly think that they're patriots. But a patriot puts his country first and is willing to work with every other citizen to make sure that he has peace in his house. As the man of your house, you want to be a patriot to the peace of your household and not a loyalist to your way of perceiving.

00:20:47:17 - 00:21:25:24
Dennis
And in a best case scenario, you have somebody reasonable as your wife or girlfriend who is a patriot and who cares more about peace in the house and finding ways to love and understand each other than a loyalist to her narrative that she may be getting from sources like the internet. You know, media sources that are designed to.

00:21:26:01 - 00:21:54:09
Dennis
Reinforce a certain way of thinking for her, Desperate Housewives or The View or, you know, Love Island or The White Lotus or whatever, while you're listening to Jordan Peterson or Joe Rogan or Joe Dispenza or Andrew Tate or wherever you're getting your, your stuff from. So.

00:21:54:11 - 00:22:27:19
Dennis
Conflict avoidant husband is the guy who says, I don't want any drama, so I'm just going to clam up, unfortunately. Like, look, I know it's Laurel. I know it's a blue black, a blue and black dress. I'm not going to sit here and have an argument with this woman. She must be having her period. She must just be having some crap going on in her crazy woman theater in her head.

00:22:27:19 - 00:23:03:04
Dennis
And I'm not trying to get sucked in all that. Let me go out to the garage, let me go play my X-Box or PlayStation. Let me, let me go doom scroll and say, until this goes away. Well, buddy, you and I both know it's not going away. So here is where I help you to understand what the appropriate way to solve conflict is in your relationship.

00:23:03:06 - 00:23:26:06
Dennis
And I'm flying solo today. I don't have my buddy Charles Ledbetter with me. He's out at the lake with his family. So good on him. So I'm going to take a little break here to drink some nice cold water.

00:23:26:08 - 00:23:42:10
Dennis
That take a nice deep breath. And friend, let's let's talk about it. Okay. So let's roll back to my original example.

00:23:42:12 - 00:24:03:13
Dennis
In my original example she is unhappy. And when she's unhappy you feel threatened. Let's talk about why you feel threatened when she's unhappy.

00:24:03:15 - 00:24:33:12
Dennis
You have been reading off of a script which historically says that men are protectors, providers, and performers. So you have been taught that if you provide house, car, cars, toys, life insurance.

00:24:33:14 - 00:24:49:01
Dennis
Kids stuff for the kids, BJJ lessons, soccer lessons, good education, college fund.

00:24:49:03 - 00:25:29:12
Dennis
Maybe put a pool in the backyard, maybe upgrade the house. Maybe put an ad you in the back. Have other people look at you and say, oh, they're coming up. They're doing really good. Then you're a good man. You're a busy little beaver who is creating the terrarium in which your wife and kids you know exist. And if we go all the way back to the early days of America and its colonization, that was a valuable role right there.

00:25:29:14 - 00:25:55:02
Dennis
If you set up a plot of land, put a fence around it, raised your kids like little House on the Prairie and kept them protected and helped them and, you know, grow and became strong in the community and gruesome wealth and did all that. There was no expectation of you to be empathetic or present or, you know, sensitive to feelings or any of that.

00:25:55:02 - 00:26:01:13
Dennis
You did your job well. But.

00:26:01:15 - 00:26:35:01
Dennis
In 2026, that paradigm has decidedly changed. In addition to being a provider, a protector, and a high performer, you are now also expected to put in the reps. And I'm using that as a an acronym for.

00:26:35:03 - 00:27:42:12
Dennis
Respect, empathy and presence. These days, women are bringing home salaries that come close to or even are significantly more than their partner slash husbands salaries. So that puts a little bit less emphasis on him being a provider and a high performer, at least in the areas he's historically been operating in. And it puts her in a position where she feels more than ever like she needs you to respect her by understanding how much she's doing and what it feels like for her to get through a day.

00:27:42:12 - 00:27:47:13
Dennis
And we're going to get to that piece, the feels piece.

00:27:47:15 - 00:28:41:14
Dennis
She needs for you to have empathy. And again, we're going to circle back to that. It's something that I've mentioned before, but I feel like I can never say it enough. And she needs presence from you. Okay. The reason women are drawn to media sources and entertainment sources that validate their once and needs is precisely because they're not getting met, and for them, it's not a complete relationship.

00:28:41:16 - 00:28:52:22
Dennis
Without these needs getting met. So how do you offer her respect?

00:28:52:24 - 00:29:14:07
Dennis
Respect recognizes that she wants to be in a relationship with someone who genuinely loves her, and her idea of love might be different than what you're offering.

00:29:14:09 - 00:29:52:19
Dennis
At this point. I think we all know the five love languages, right? Whatever they are, I always forget them. But you know what they are. You can Google it. Acts of service, words of affirmation. Quality time or whatever. Gift giving and physical touch. I think that's it. Men typically want the validation and the physical touch. Women typically want the.

00:29:52:21 - 00:30:00:04
Dennis
Quality time and the acts of service.

00:30:00:06 - 00:30:07:16
Dennis
And so you set up this sort of I'll give you your thing if you give me my thing dynamic.

00:30:07:20 - 00:30:27:13
Andrew
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00:30:27:15 - 00:30:37:09
Andrew
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00:30:37:09 - 00:31:04:12
Dennis
And then you find yourself in a relationship where the love is conditional rather than unconditional. And that's a trap. Now the thing is, she wants to love you. She wants to give you everything that she has. She wants to give you everything that you want, need. She wants to. She wants to pour herself into you. That is where men admittedly are kind of stupid.

00:31:04:12 - 00:31:09:05
Dennis
And I'm saying that as a man.

00:31:09:07 - 00:31:39:18
Dennis
We do not experience the same need to give completely into the other person to pour ourselves into the other person that women do. And it's taken me a long time to figure this out. So, you know, I'm a coach, but women have a need to give themselves completely into their partner. There is a feeling of completion there for them.

00:31:39:20 - 00:32:09:19
Dennis
There is an absolute sense of purpose and unity there that is as desirable for them as, you know, some of our most compulsive sexual drives and fantasies. Which is why when men she.

00:32:09:21 - 00:32:41:24
Dennis
It's usually sexual, and when the women she it's usually romantic and why a woman would rather hear that you screwed a hooker in Tijuana than that you're having lunch dates with a coworker and sending each other little heart messages. And I love you even if you haven't had sex. And on the flip side, you don't care if she's having a romantic relationship with the guy.

00:32:42:00 - 00:33:06:16
Dennis
Your first question is, did you fuck him? And if she says no, there's been no physical interaction, then you're like, okay, cool. So he's basically a gay friend. Thanks for picking up my late. Thanks for picking up my slack, buddy. Preheat the oven for me. But yeah, the the thing that I'm getting at here is that men and women historically.

00:33:06:16 - 00:34:01:08
Dennis
And I get it, there's, you know, all different types of people and there are a bunch of rule breakers. But for my demographic, I'll just be clear, you know, I'm sure there's some whatever non-binary, non heteronormative, you know, trans inclusive podcast out there where the rules are different and who am I to speak in that space. But in this space the rules are famously that men want to just be in a chill relationship that's mainly transactional with a woman who's like a buddy, but you also have hot sex, and she tells you how awesome you are all the time, and she never criticizes you and she gives you a whole lot.

00:34:01:09 - 00:34:35:19
Dennis
She gives you the roaming range of a grizzly bear and isn't jealous and doesn't go through your phone or your computer. Never asks you about anything, doesn't care who your friends are, doesn't care if you have to drift off and do your own thing to get your mind right. And she goes and talks to her sister, or a girlfriend, or a therapist, or keeps a journal and gets her shit right when she's whacking out so that you don't, so that you hear as little about it as possible.

00:34:35:20 - 00:34:47:04
Dennis
Not that you don't care, just that you have a short attention span for complaining. You're stoic. You got a problem, deal with it.

00:34:47:05 - 00:35:18:17
Dennis
So respect for her is that you recognize that she needs to be in a relationship with you, where she can pour herself into you, and she can communicate with you the way she would communicate with another woman who was a really good friend. If you ever watched two women talk to each other, you get an idea of what she's looking for.

00:35:18:19 - 00:35:53:11
Dennis
One person preemptively, the friend says, hey, are you okay? Because she can sense that the person is showing up a little differently energetically than usual. Now look, bro, you're not stupid. You see it? You you see it, but you're you're avoidant. That's what this whole thing is about. Conflict avoidant husband. Right? You're avoidant because you're thinking, oh crap, I don't know what her deal is, but she seems like she's got to be in her bonnet.

00:35:53:12 - 00:36:05:24
Dennis
Let me go ahead and get as far away from that as possible. Hey, honey, I'm going to go out in a garage real quick and just build a car, you know?

00:36:06:01 - 00:36:37:14
Dennis
And what she wants you to do in that situation is to one, be perceptive enough to see that she's off in some way and be proactive and to preemptively say, hey, are you okay? Is everything all right now? Again, in the female relationship, the response would be something like, no, I'm fine. Everything's fine because she really doesn't want to trauma dump.

00:36:37:19 - 00:37:05:12
Dennis
But I mean, she does, but she doesn't she doesn't. She needs to know that the person that's asking her is really giving her a green light to be vulnerable. So the friend will say something like, no, come on, something's wrong, I can tell. What is it? And again, it'll be no, really. It's fine, it's fine. It's just I don't know if I want to get all into it.

00:37:05:12 - 00:37:23:07
Dennis
And then the friend will say something like, no, really, I'm here. Don't worry, I like I got you. What's up? And then the bomb drops, then the damn brakes, and it's. Well, lately I've just been feeling overwhelmed, blah blah.

00:37:23:07 - 00:37:25:23
Dennis
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

00:37:25:23 - 00:38:02:03
Dennis
And she will go and it's like she's puking and your job is to hold her hair while she pukes and she might be puking right into your lap. And what I mean by that is she might be saying things that are her feelings, and you might feel a little hurt by her feelings. Example. She might say something like, you're very distracted with work.

00:38:02:05 - 00:38:10:01
Dennis
You don't spend as much time with the kids as I do, which is a concern for me.

00:38:10:03 - 00:38:34:17
Dennis
I know for a fact you have no idea where their clothes go. I can't remember the last time you you did their laundry. I'm not convinced that you even know what size clothes or shoes they wear. I'm not convinced that you even know the name of their doctor or dentist, let alone when the last time is that they've had a checkup.

00:38:34:19 - 00:39:03:23
Dennis
I don't know when I subscribe to being the manager for the house here, but I could use a little help because I have a job too, and it seems like you go run off and hide. I'm expected to do anything. We never talk. And just right there, the guy is bound to make one of the worst mistakes ever.

00:39:04:00 - 00:39:10:01
Dennis
He's either going to interrupt her and tell her.

00:39:10:03 - 00:39:36:07
Dennis
You know? Okay, so. So what's the point? What do you want me to do? Because he's trying to. He doesn't like the way this feels because he feels like he's being criticized, which, you know, technically he is, but it's different. She's not trying to hurt him. She's trying to help him to understand what their relationship is from her perspective.

00:39:36:07 - 00:40:07:11
Dennis
Or back to Laurel Yanny. She has different perceptions based on different perspectives. And. Guys will, you know, go right to the Bill Burr. You know, the comedian Bill Burr, who has this, you know, famous skit about, you know, ripping women for saying that mothering is the hardest job in the world. And he's like, oh, that's the hardest job in the world, you know?

00:40:07:12 - 00:40:35:16
Dennis
So I guess there's some guy in a, you know, whatever, a coal mine with black lung right now, you know, working for pennies on the dollar for his family. But but hanging out in the, you know, house in your pajamas, you know, putting a pop tart in the toaster for your kid. That's a hard job, you know? But, dude, any of us who's ever done her job for a significant period of time.

00:40:35:18 - 00:41:08:03
Dennis
No, it sure is a relief when it's over and we get to go back to our thing. Well, she doesn't she doesn't get to, quote, go back to your thing. There is a role there that requires a significant amount of support. So when the respect piece, you respect her most by loving her and you love her by listening.

00:41:08:05 - 00:41:27:01
Dennis
That's why I said quality time and acts of service are usually the two best ways that you can support your female partner wife, girlfriend.

00:41:27:03 - 00:41:54:22
Dennis
She wants to be able to tell you everything she's telling you without you trying to cut her off and say, what's the point without you saying, all right, if the problem is the laundry, fine, I'll do some laundry every once in a while without you saying, okay, well, if you don't like your job, then why don't you find a new job without you saying.

00:41:54:24 - 00:42:24:07
Dennis
Well, if there's some women at your office being a bitch, just reporter to HR. She's not looking for a solution. She wants to talk to you about her experience and have you understand and go, damn, that sucks. That sounds hard. In which case she's going to say right, because she's also looking for validation. She's looking to make sure she's not being a bitch.

00:42:24:08 - 00:42:47:00
Dennis
She's looking to make sure that she's not being unrealistic in her expectations. She's looking for someone to say, your feelings matter. She's looking for someone to say your feelings are valid. And that's where empathy comes in.

00:42:47:02 - 00:43:27:04
Dennis
Dude, I'm here to tell you there is a difference between being able to read the room and see what people are feeling versus actually feeling what people are feeling, and understanding how these feelings can shut you down. And part of that is because as men, we've been told, oh, you have a feeling, fuck you, you're gay. Fucking do your job, you little pussy.

00:43:27:06 - 00:43:54:11
Dennis
You know, suck it up. I mean, my business is literally called man up Life coaching because I know there are a lot of dudes out there who need to stop complaining. Just be disciplined, put one foot in front of the other and get out of the out of the hole. What I don't advertise on day one is that I know what you're going through.

00:43:54:16 - 00:44:31:20
Dennis
I have male empathy and when you hear me exclaim not only what you need to do to get out of your whole, but demonstrate that I completely feel what you're going through. You're like, Holy shit, this guy gets it, and I don't feel weird and gay and vulnerable and weak for admitting that I need that validation, that I need that support.

00:44:31:22 - 00:45:04:14
Dennis
That's why, guys, that's why so many guys kill themselves. Male suicide rate is way higher than the female suicide rate. And the male loneliness epidemic is at an all time high because men have been checkmated into downplaying our feelings while being expected to acknowledge the feelings of the women and children in their lives.

00:45:04:16 - 00:45:59:01
Dennis
So the answer is not to go full stoical and cold on your wife. The answer is allow yourself to feel her feelings. And that's not that's going to feel weird for you, dude, I'm telling you, this is not an easy thing. Most guys I know would rather be punched in the face than have some of the conversations that they have with their wives, where she says some really hard to hear stuff because women will say some stuff that's really hard to hear and it will hurt your feelings, and it will feel like she's weaponizing your vulnerabilities, or her knowledge of your vulnerabilities.

00:45:59:04 - 00:46:45:10
Dennis
And in a way, she is. But she's not trying to knock you down. She's just trying to make you feel. And unfortunately, when she takes a shot at you, you feel that. And even if you get Reiji, she's willing to tolerate that. Which, you know, is the grounds for a destructive, codependent relationship. But she's willing to tolerate that because at least you feeling something negative is you feeling something, and your negative emotional reaction is at least an emotion and not you just being a rock or a lizard or a robot.

00:46:45:12 - 00:46:49:24
Dennis
Now.

00:46:50:01 - 00:47:18:14
Dennis
When I say that she wants empathy, what I mean is she doesn't want cognitive empathy, which is kind of like sympathy, where you say, oh, you had a hard day at work and you're in the luteal phase of your period. Probably about 5% of my audience even knows what that is. But, you had a hard day at work.

00:47:18:16 - 00:47:51:17
Dennis
You're you're you're you're having your period. You're clearly stressed out, and you just need to calm down because you're you're you're all wrapped up in anxious. I understand that I get all wrapped up in anxious sometimes, too. You think that that means that you're being empathetic? I understand, I get it. You're not. You have sympathy. Like when you see somebody getting pulled over by a cop and you pass by and go, oh, that sucks.

00:47:51:18 - 00:48:28:19
Dennis
Better him than me, right? What empathy is, is kind of like, if your partner told you that your family dog died, you wouldn't just feel bad for her. Of a sudden, you would feel a big old ice cold hole in your chest. And in that moment when you are looking at each other, you're both experiencing that loss, but you're being mutually supportive of each other.

00:48:28:19 - 00:49:02:02
Dennis
You've been in that moment. We're just kind of looking desperately in each other's eyes. It's the same kind of looking that you do when she's delivering a baby. It's the same kind of looking that you do if you, you know, if you were to have a buddy who is getting his whatever bullet wound Carter ized with the hot knife, putting a stick in his mouth, Clint Eastwood style, and you're looking at your buddy like, man, I know this sucks, but oh, shit, just gotta hurt.

00:49:02:02 - 00:49:43:05
Dennis
But I got you. That's empathy, buddy. Empathic is when you feel what she's feeling. The truth of the matter is that's learned. You have spent your whole life learning how to compartmentalize that so that you weren't overwhelmed by your feelings so that you could be wait for it. A provider, a protector, and a high performer. You've learned that feelings prevent you from being able to achieve in those areas, so you've just learned how to quarantine them.

00:49:43:05 - 00:50:09:03
Dennis
You've learned how to put up a partition, throw all your dirty laundry in the closet, never to be seen again, right? Unless you get drunk or high or something. And then they all come out and then you catch a panic attack, you know, or act out because you're finally able to sort of separate yourself from the guy going, this.

00:50:09:03 - 00:50:12:17
Dennis
Is foreign, this is fine, this is fine.

00:50:12:19 - 00:50:33:02
Dennis
So if you're conflict avoidant in your marriage, I am going to give you the suggestion that, number one, you should your as a rule, you should ask her. Hey is there anything you'd like to talk about?

00:50:33:04 - 00:51:03:06
Dennis
There is an episode of Rick and Morty back in the day where there were a, female society and a male society and the male society were all these exaggerated troglodyte monsters, and the female society was all architecture and fine art and music, and they would walk around and they would every time they would pass each other, they'd say, I'm here if you need to talk.

00:51:03:07 - 00:51:08:24
Dennis
I'm here if you need to talk. I'm here if you need to talk.

00:51:09:01 - 00:51:39:06
Dennis
That's funny because it's true. The number one thing you can do is instead of avoiding conflict. Actually initiate controlled conflict by asking, hey, is there anything you would like to talk about? I'm here. If you need to talk as a dude, you're thinking, why would I poke the hornet's nest? I know it's going to come out. It's going to be two hours.

00:51:39:06 - 00:52:14:14
Dennis
Just straight hot shit. That's going to make me wish I'd never said anything. Dude. It's just like paying taxes. You can pay annually and you can pay quarterly. If you pay quarterly, you take less of a hit. I'm telling you that if you preemptively give her opportunities to talk, it will suggest to her that you care because you're asking, and it'll be way different than if she finally has to go.

00:52:14:16 - 00:52:53:20
Dennis
Okay, I need to talk right now. Another thing that you don't understand is that you process emotions differently than she does. Or I should say, feelings. Nervous system, deregulation, to be precise, you process nervous system deregulation differently than she does. Talking does not regulate you retreating into silence or doing an activity regulates you. That's why so many dudes stay up at night doom scrolling.

00:52:53:23 - 00:53:24:05
Dennis
That's why dudes are up on their couch hitting the weed pen or taking gummies. That's why dudes become compulsive porn users. That's why guys get addicted to, like, gambling on. Like, you know, all of the famous gambling apps that are out there for sports bets or whatever crap these days, you can bet on which you know, side of the table a fork is going to fall on.

00:53:24:05 - 00:53:52:04
Dennis
It's just it's crazy. And all of these things give a stop a mine, and we retreat and we hold ourselves up and we deal with our shit. And then when we feel better, we come out and we say, hey baby, I'm here and I'm ready to have a great relationship who want some nookie? And she's infuriated because she feels abandoned, because she doesn't process the same way.

00:53:52:06 - 00:54:27:24
Dennis
So a note for you again, ask her preemptively if you need to talk. Now. In fairness, you could have her listen to this segment of the podcast and let her know that just as she needs to talk, you need to retreat. So if you say, hey, I need to get my mind right, I'm going to go play Call of Duty or I am going to go hang out in the garage, or I'm literally just going to go lie on the couch and doom scroll on Instagram or whatever until I get over whatever's bugging me.

00:54:28:01 - 00:54:54:15
Dennis
You have as much of a right to retreat and get your mind right in your little mental man cave, or your physical man cave, like going out to the garage or whatever. You have as much a right to do that and a need to do that, as she has a right and a need to expect to have deep conversation with the person who's supposed to love her more than anybody else in the world.

00:54:54:17 - 00:55:12:02
Dennis
When she talks, don't defend. I don't care if she says, you never take out the trash and you so badly want to say, are you crazy? I literally took it out three times this week.

00:55:12:04 - 00:55:44:19
Dennis
That's not what we're doing here. These are not facts. Their feelings. Feelings are not facts. If she says you never take out the trash, that's obviously hyperbole. What she's saying is, I feel like I'm doing everything and I'm unappreciated. So if she says, you never take out the trash, you say, go on.

00:55:44:21 - 00:56:06:15
Dennis
You know, she says, I might as well be a single mother since I do everything for the kids. You don't say, oh, now come on, I do this and I do this, and I do this, and I do this. Who took him to karate last night or fucking whatever? You. You don't do that, you say I hear you.

00:56:06:17 - 00:56:30:13
Dennis
That sounds hard. I'm actually feeling bad now because I. I wish you didn't feel so unsupported in our relationship. All that's going to make her do is go. Well, you don't obviously care that much because you don't do anything. Like, what are you going to do about it?

00:56:30:15 - 00:57:07:13
Dennis
Your job is to continue to recognize that. She is hopeful that by having a conversation, you'll hear Yanny. You'll see the white and gold dress you will for just one God dang moment, appreciate what life is like for from her perspective, put on the apron and, you know, sit there with your menstrual cramps and go, Holy shit. This is what it feels like.

00:57:07:15 - 00:57:46:09
Dennis
So dude, ask her if she needs to talk. Don't avoid conflict. Ask her if she needs to talk. Ask her if everything's okay. Take a note from this and give her quality time. Don't criticize her her her shows, man that give her some kind of feeling. That's a good feeling. Don't rip her shit. Her rom coms, her. Like I said, her dumb chick shows whatever The Bachelor or whatever.

00:57:46:15 - 00:58:16:19
Dennis
Like, you know, love on the spectrum. And I'm the father of a child who is autistic, so I'm not ripping people on the spectrum. There's a it's a coin toss if I'm autistic or not. But anyway. Sidebar. Be a good dude. Listen to her. Don't defend. All of her feelings are valid. Let her hit rock bottom. Let her come to the top.

00:58:16:21 - 00:58:41:06
Dennis
Be present. Be animated with your face. Look like you care. Act like you're trying to get laid. Or remember your first date sitting there listening to some chick. Go man, man man man man man man. The whole time you're going, oh, wow. Really? Wow. This is the most interesting conversation about somebody dream or sister or job that I've ever heard.

00:58:41:06 - 00:59:13:18
Dennis
Because you're just you're just some dumb bro who likes having a pretty chick batter eyelashes at you, smile at you, and you're thinking, I'm going to get some. Give your wife that level or your girlfriend that level of interest. Give her that level of concern. Don't avoid conflict. Give her space and undivided attention preemptively, frequently, and you're going to have a better time.

00:59:13:18 - 00:59:37:17
Dennis
And when you need to take space, ask for it. All right, on that note, we're at the end of our hour. I'm about to jump into a session. I hope this was valuable for you. I'm Dennis Procopio, I'm the owner of Manna Life Coaching. You can follow us and join us and become a part of this awesome tribe.

00:59:37:20 - 01:00:08:10
Dennis
We are men who care about men. We are good guys who believe in healthy masculinity, who love women, who understand that we're different and are trying the best we can to show up for our children, our women, and ourselves in an optimal way. Until the next time. Like. Follow. Subscribe. Manna life coaching com broken. We're on all of your favorites socials.

01:00:08:11 - 01:00:12:04
Dennis
Until then, Barocco signing off.