Lonely at the Top: Why Successful Men Have Difficulty Maintaining Friendships

You've got the career, the income, and the respect. And somehow you're the loneliest guy in the room.

Nobody warns you about this part. The bigger your life gets, the smaller your real circle gets. What used to be loneliness at the bottom doesn't disappear when you hit the top. It just changes what it looks like.

Dennis Procopio (The Bro Coach®) and Charles Ledbetter dig into why high-achieving men quietly lose real friendships as they gain success, and what it actually takes to build the kind of male connection that can hold the weight of the life you're building.

Charles came into Man-UP! Life Coaching isolated and burned out. He rebuilt everything: businesses, a marriage, a family. Then he realized the loneliness had a way of cycling back in. Success doesn't solve it. It just repackages it.

This episode covers the male loneliness epidemic at the top, why men are wired to be human doings instead of human beings, why validation from your wife or your mom can't touch what real brotherhood does for you, and Dennis's linear drive vs. lateral being framework for men who keep building upward without building outward.

Also: Robin Williams, capuchin monkeys, and why skipping relationships is just like skipping leg day.

TIMESTAMPS 

0:00 - Why Successful Men Have No Real Friends 

1:33 - Charles's Before and After: Isolated to Rebuilt 

10:31 - Dennis on the Beach: "Are You Successful?" 

14:18 - Male Empathy and Emotional Conditioning 

20:47 - Human Doing vs. Human Being 

22:47 - Robin Williams and Loneliness at the Top 

24:07 - Connection Is Biological: The Capuchin Monkey Study 

50:37 - Linear Drive vs. Lateral Being: Dennis's Framework

WHAT YOU'LL LEARN

• Why success amplifies loneliness instead of curing it
• The difference between extrinsic self-esteem and intrinsic self-worth
• Why male validation hits differently than anything your partner can offer
• How to maintain real male friendships when your schedule is full
• The linear drive vs. lateral being framework for sustainable success

THIS HITS IF YOU'RE

• Winning on paper but feeling like something's missing
• Successful enough that you've outgrown most of your old friends
• The guy everyone else thinks has it all figured out
• Wondering why more success isn't making the loneliness quieter

TAKE ACTION Free 30-minute strategy session: https://www.manuplifecoaching.com/application

CONNECT Website: https://brocoach.com Instagram: https://instagram.com/manuplifecoaching TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@manuplifecoaching YouTube: https://youtube.com/@manuplifecoaching

ABOUT THE SHOW The Bro Coach® Podcast with Dennis Procopio. Not red-pill garbage. Not therapy. Real coaching for guys who achieved success but missed the point. Dennis has 25,000+ hours working with high-earning men ($150K to $3M+) who look successful but feel stuck.

Transcript

00:00:00:07 - 00:00:23:09
Andrew
Most men want more. More clarity. More respect. More trouble over their lives. But few know how to get it. Welcome to the Pro Coach podcast with Dennis Procopio, the founder of Man Up Life Coaching and the man behind thousands of Transform Lives. Not red pill, not therapy. Just the evolved man's blueprint for strength, presence and purpose.

00:00:23:10 - 00:01:02:12
Dennis
Hello and welcome. I am Dennis Procopio. I am here with my host, Charles Ledbetter, and we are the Bro Coach podcast. If you've been following along, we are into season two and we cover all topics male wellness, betterment. And on today's session we are going to be discussing why it's lonely at the top, why successful men have no real friends.

00:01:02:14 - 00:01:12:01
Dennis
Even when they look like they're winning. Okay, we're going to set it off right now. Charles, thanks for being here.

00:01:12:03 - 00:01:13:11
Charles
Good to see you, brother man.

00:01:13:12 - 00:01:33:05
Dennis
Good to see you too, homie. Charles. As you know, I've been coaching for a minute. You kind of came through man up life coaching, and you're before and after is a success story in its own right. Tell me about your before and after.

00:01:33:07 - 00:01:56:14
Charles
Yeah. So, you know, it's funny. I came into this thing pretty lonely. I, I came into this place in a spot where I didn't feel like I had a bunch of friends, and it was mostly because I burned bridges. I isolated myself, I believed the lies and the subconscious tape playing in the back of my head. But then what happened?

00:01:56:15 - 00:02:20:13
Charles
I started with man up live coaching. I began a process of personal development and got on passion for the man I knew I could be. And a lot of things happened for me, right? I built a lot of relationships. I built a business, I got married, I had a wife, you know, and I have a child. Multiple businesses at this point.

00:02:20:14 - 00:02:47:06
Charles
Life got pretty good by all the definitions of success, right? I've also found, though, at that point, the the loneliness, if we're not careful, has a very real possibility of cycling back around and working its way back in. So it was like lonely at the bottom, but also lonely at the top. Because when your life gets full of all these wonderful things, well guess what?

00:02:47:06 - 00:03:12:03
Charles
That acquire that requires attention, that requires care, that requires time and energy. And you're responsible for those things, right? And with that, all of a sudden you have to change your priorities in life. And you can't just there's there's a lot of guys who I love. I saw one at the gym just this week, man, that we used to be such good friends.

00:03:12:03 - 00:03:36:14
Charles
But in the place that I've traveled to in life, the chasm between us has just grown farther and farther and how we're alignment. And honestly, I can't afford to have him as that high a priority in my life to be able to give time to him right the way I did at one point, right where I didn't have a whole lot of responsibility, and we could just hang and shoot the shit on any given day, anytime we wanted.

00:03:36:15 - 00:04:08:11
Charles
And, you know, play video games, fuck off, listen to music, like, whatever. Sure. Now it's like, no, man, I've got big decisions that have to be made. I've got plans that have to be kept. I've got a schedule. I've got five calendars, right? All overlapping with each other. And so the struggle right at this point is how do you be successful and still have high quality relationships with men in particular?

00:04:08:16 - 00:04:31:01
Charles
Right. That that's the one that's key. All right. So I've just made a rule. For instance, I've got a buddy, Bret, best friend in the whole world, man. And we just we have made it a rule that we cannot talk about a good idea of getting together. We have to make plans and put it on a calendar before we get off the phone, or it'll never happen.

00:04:31:01 - 00:04:39:13
Charles
We'll go six, eight months, you know, not not seeing each other. Right? And we live 15 minutes away from each other.

00:04:39:15 - 00:05:12:01
Dennis
Yeah, it's funny because friendships, different friendships have different levels of maintenance. I have a couple of friends. I can count them on one hand. Three. Who I know, whether a month or a year goes by, I can reach out to them, or they can reach out to me, and we just kind of pick it up, like you would pick up reading a book.

00:05:12:03 - 00:05:47:23
Dennis
You just pick up right where you left off. Yeah. Those friends are great for me because there's no expectation on either side to entertain them in any way, to handhold them through their life. Like, I'm your friend, not your coach, you know, or your, you know, emotional repository and vice versa. Like, I've got my stuff handled, you have your stuff handled.

00:05:47:23 - 00:06:18:07
Dennis
And then the presumption is we check in when we're able to check in and we both respect, hey, if you don't answer the text, if you don't answer the call, whatever, you're probably doing something and vice versa. Yeah. So I guess we're where I was going with that is I think when you have a lot of time, you're more willing to engage in friendships where the give and take is, has a different expectation.

00:06:18:07 - 00:06:45:08
Dennis
It's, hey, I'm lonely. I want somebody to do stuff with versus once you have a million plates spinning, it's, hey, I still want social, especially as a guy. I still want those male friends. But my time is really limited. And if you're going to get butthurt because I have to go a month or two months without checking in, then this isn't the dynamic for me at this stage.

00:06:45:09 - 00:06:46:07
Dennis
Is that right?

00:06:46:09 - 00:07:16:04
Charles
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Man. Do you find that your male relationships at this point, because the circle is so much smaller, right. The time is so much more valuable than it ever was that when you do talk and do connect with them, that it's almost like an understood, like, hey, we have an agenda. Like, I need to know what's going on in your life.

00:07:16:04 - 00:07:36:09
Charles
I need to get, you know what I mean? And like, we we're kind of like bullet pointing the things to where it's like, okay, sweet. So that we may it's not just like, oh, hey, dude, what's up? And like, we're going to sit around and talk about nothing, right? It's like bang, bang, bang. We get in there. Hey, dude.

00:07:36:09 - 00:07:46:05
Charles
Love you, miss you. What's going on with her? What's happening with this? How's your business doing? Okay, sweet. You know what I mean? And we're like, yeah, we're kind of getting to it. Has it been like that for you or.

00:07:46:11 - 00:08:13:20
Dennis
100%? Well, in some cases it depends on the nature of the friendship. But like, okay, I guess since you and I both coach, I'll, I'll kind of put it in coaching terms. Number one, I guess it's important to recognize that when men communicate, we're usually dealing with informational data points rather than trying to take a real feely ride together.

00:08:13:22 - 00:08:38:21
Dennis
Like, like, you know, I gotta raise my dog died. You know, we're having another kid, and I would never got my teeth whitened, you know what I mean? Not not my dog died. It was so sad. Let's go down the rabbit hole of what that means, right? I got I got a I got a promotion at my job.

00:08:38:21 - 00:09:01:13
Dennis
It feels so good. Let me tell you about the before and after it. It's. And this is pretty typical of the way men historically communicate. I'm not necessarily saying that should be the standard, because it's great to have male empathy and to have somebody say, oh, congratulations for, for, for your new job. That must feel good for you or your race.

00:09:01:13 - 00:09:24:00
Dennis
Hey, your dog died. That sucks. I've been through that. But my point is, as you as you said, circling back to what you said, if I call my buddy Justin, who's in New Orleans, that's my that's my homie from back in the day. Friends, many years later, we have a history. So we have some inside jokes.

00:09:24:00 - 00:09:46:00
Dennis
We have some hey, remember when stuff? But usually it'll be like, hey, bro, how's your mom? How's your job? Are you in a relationship or are you good? Just in general? Higher level. And what's going on that. I don't know that I don't know. Sure. Bit bit bit bit. Bip I get that and same thing. He's going to be like, hey, how are you?

00:09:46:01 - 00:10:11:11
Dennis
I'll be like, you know, Celia is fine, Ben. It's fine. You know, her job is going great. He's he's turning 16 and he's really maturing into a cool little guy. I've been going out on weekends doing the Jeep wheeling thing. My business is really a lot right now. I'm kind of up to my chin in business, but in a good way.

00:10:11:13 - 00:10:31:12
Dennis
And anything else, you know, whatever. I'm exercising regularly and feeling pretty good for 55. Well, that sounds great. Yeah, it sounds great. Well, shoot the shit for a little bit. And it's like, all right, man, listen, I gotta go. I got a session coming up or whatever. Got to pick up my kid. So.

00:10:31:14 - 00:11:17:11
Dennis
It's funny that we're framing this as why successful men can be lonely. Because it causes you to ask what success really means. I'm going to. I'm going to say this, and then you're probably going to tune into this. When I first started Man Up Life Coaching in 2013. Right. In San Diego, I was taking a ten by ten tent, a couple of folding chairs, some business cards, and I was going out to the beach and I was doing laser sessions, and people would come by and be like, man up life coaching.

00:11:17:11 - 00:11:41:24
Dennis
What is that? Because there was no male life coaching. Sure. And they're just walking around, you know, and I would say I'd see a guy in my age, my target demographic. I was in my 40s at the time and early 40s. And so it was usually younger guys, guys in their 20s, 30s maybe closer to my age, but usually a little bit younger.

00:11:42:05 - 00:12:04:17
Dennis
Right. Although I got some 50s and 60s and I would ask all these guys the same question, they'd say, what is this? And I'd say, well, this is coaching for success driven men. Are you successful? Interestingly, I never once had someone say yes. Isn't that funny?

00:12:04:22 - 00:12:35:21
Charles
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. I mean, you talk about the the psychological pressure that we stay under and how hard we judge each other and judge ourselves really primarily like that. Judging each other is just a projection of how harshly we judge ourselves. Because every time I get on the phone with one of my very few close friends today, we do that bam, bam, bam bam.

00:12:35:21 - 00:12:57:13
Charles
Here's all the information. And then even it takes on an almost I know. And that's why these people are close to me, right? That I'm when they give me that information, it tells me how they need to be validated like instantly. Right? It's like, okay, I know how I need to bless him. I know how they need to encourage him.

00:12:57:13 - 00:13:16:19
Charles
I know how I need to validate him, and I also know how I need to challenge him. Right. So like there's an agenda of how can I help on that call every single time, like there's intention and vice versa. I have chosen men that the few men that are closest to me, though, they're not coaches, right? They do the same thing.

00:13:16:21 - 00:13:40:08
Charles
I tell them what's going on in my life, and they are men who understand the value of of validation and affirmation and encouraging each other. Right. And they understand the iron sharpening iron concept. Right. So they're an extra set of eyes and ears for me, just like I am for them as well, because men, left to our own devices, go to that place where nothing successful.

00:13:40:09 - 00:13:45:00
Charles
Like you said, it doesn't matter what we're doing, it just doesn't feel successful.

00:13:45:02 - 00:14:18:03
Dennis
That's right, that's right. And so I'm going to I appreciate what you said there. And I really like the piece where you said that I choose male relationships based on the idea that there's a kind of an in equal mutual is the guess the word. I'm looking for intuition to be okay, receiving support and to offer support. Now, here's the thing that I've noticed happens.

00:14:18:03 - 00:15:07:13
Dennis
And I'm going to kind of snag the mic for a second. Hopefully I don't over talk, but I have this idea that I want to get across which what I'm leading into is empathy. I'm leading into male empathy, something we touched on in our last podcast with Augusta Dunbar. So if you're a dude and I don't just mean like, any dude, but the kind of guy who might curiously drift over to something called Manna Life coaching because he's looking for something closer to the Andrew Joe Rogan thing than he is to the Eckert Tolly, you know, sort of soy boy thing.

00:15:07:13 - 00:15:58:11
Dennis
And I'm not saying that disparagingly, you know, there's no political commentary going on here. I'm just saying if you're more of the dude dude knuckle dragger. Again, which I'm not saying that disparagingly, your, your male friendship model is probably something like you keep it, bro. And unless you smoke weed together or, you know, do recreational drugs together or drink together, or if you're sober, you know, go camping together and like, bond at the next level where you're allowed to open up and be a little bit more supportive without feeling uncomfortable, like you're like, you're like talking like a couple of girls, you know what I mean?

00:15:58:11 - 00:16:19:21
Dennis
Because that's a thing. And if, you know, if women hear that, they might be like, oh my God, guys in their dicks. But that's really a that's really a thing. Like we piss two urinals away from each other. We, we, we respect boundaries and we don't know guy ever calls another guy up and goes, hey, buddy. How you feeling?

00:16:19:22 - 00:16:24:06
Dennis
That's just not a thing. That's always what's going on. You know.

00:16:24:08 - 00:16:27:01
Charles
What, to give you the facts.

00:16:27:03 - 00:17:08:00
Dennis
So it's it's there is this percentage of the listening audience who might, like I said, drift over here and say, what are these guys about? And they're looking for me to be like, you know, Hulk Hogan brother, or be like the Liver King or something, and or Brock Lesnar and you know, you know, and when they hear me talking to another guy about showing mutual support and showing compassion, they're like, are these gentlemen homosexuals, you know?

00:17:08:01 - 00:17:09:08
Dennis
Right.

00:17:09:10 - 00:17:10:09
Charles
Yeah, yeah.

00:17:10:11 - 00:17:30:24
Dennis
And because it really hits us at what we've been conditioned, which is that being emotionally sensitive or supportive is just the opposite of being masculine feelings. Yeah. That's like what? Like a stomachache. Look, I got it.

00:17:31:01 - 00:17:34:05
Charles
That what you mean by feelings?

00:17:34:07 - 00:17:35:16
Dennis
I mean. Right?

00:17:35:17 - 00:18:09:18
Charles
Yeah. Yeah. No, that's exactly right, man. You know, and and we've talked about this before, right? If we don't discuss these feelings, we don't have the language for it in the first place anyway. And so it's like we have to tote this line, you know, walk this very thin line between, okay, how do I make sure this doesn't store up in my body and metastasize and become a habitual toxin inside me, right.

00:18:09:19 - 00:18:22:14
Charles
But at the same time, I was watching a meme this week, dude, our video on Facebook, and it's a woman interviewing her husband, and she's like, yeah, so you know what?

00:18:22:14 - 00:18:23:02
Dennis
What is the.

00:18:23:02 - 00:18:33:08
Charles
Conversation like? You know, when you're just having a bad day and you call your buddy, you know? And he was like, I don't. And she was like, what?

00:18:33:09 - 00:18:35:17
Charles
And she's like.

00:18:35:19 - 00:18:39:07
Charles
Like that doesn't happen. Like, we don't do that, you know what I mean? Like.

00:18:39:08 - 00:18:40:14
Charles
We don't.

00:18:40:16 - 00:18:49:08
Charles
Over our bad day, and then we call our friend to tell them about what happened back then, once we're no longer emotionally in the throes of it. You know.

00:18:49:08 - 00:18:50:07
Charles
What I mean?

00:18:50:09 - 00:18:57:17
Charles
Like, we deal with the emotion first, usually on our own, and then we, you know, maybe we talk about it later, like.

00:18:57:19 - 00:19:20:14
Dennis
100%. And there's a reason for that. There's an absolute reason for that. And we talk about this probably every, every episode. But I have this assumption that a we're always going to have new listeners. So it's an it doesn't hurt to reiterate this and B motherfuckers don't remember shit anyway, so I might as well get them with repetition to get it in there.

00:19:20:19 - 00:20:06:13
Dennis
The three piece of being a male or, you know, protect, provide and perform. And so from the very beginning, we equate our value to what we do have done rather than to how we be, how we show up, what our vibe is. And boy, if that's not going to get you in trouble with women, children and animals because, you know, they're more tuned frankly to your vibe than they are to your list of accolades.

00:20:06:13 - 00:20:21:19
Dennis
And right, like, wow, this guy just ran a freaking seven minute mile for 15 miles. What a stud. Yeah, women are not leading with, you know, how much do you bench or whatever, right?

00:20:21:22 - 00:20:30:22
Charles
Men are trained from the earliest phases of life to be a human doing, and it is very hard to become a human being as a man.

00:20:30:24 - 00:20:35:17
Dennis
That is quality content right there.

00:20:35:19 - 00:20:36:17
Charles
That is that.

00:20:36:17 - 00:20:40:02
Dennis
Is that marketing coming directly from lead.?

00:20:40:02 - 00:20:47:06
Charles
Better man.com. Because that's good shit. Yeah. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, that's really good a.

00:20:47:06 - 00:20:49:02
Dennis
Human doing rather than a.

00:20:49:02 - 00:20:51:02
Charles
Human being. You got the you.

00:20:51:02 - 00:20:52:13
Dennis
Got marketing skills.

00:20:52:19 - 00:20:53:21
Charles


00:20:53:23 - 00:21:19:02
Dennis
So so so I will just say that back to the topic of men being lonely. So here. Well, not men being lonely, but specifically outside of the male loneliness epidemic. There's. I made it to the top. Why am I so lonely? You know, you see these guys, like, celebrities who make it. Like, who's the guy? George Clooney.

00:21:19:03 - 00:21:57:02
Dennis
I was going to do the head down and then look up thing. George. George Clooney. George Clooney is famous for my boys. And he would use his money to, like, by his buddies, like, motorcycles and shit so that they could go around and do stuff. He was basically like, paying to have fun with his friends and the male loneliness epidemic at the top is based on the idea that you've been trying so hard to claw your way up to the top to satisfy your self.

00:21:57:03 - 00:22:27:18
Dennis
Here we are again, your self-esteem, which is extrinsic, which is a fancy way of saying if other people think I'm cool, then I think I'm cool. If other people think I'm successful, then I think I'm successful versus self-worth, which is intrinsic, where we say, if I feel good in my in my body, then and if I'm okay with where I'm at, then rich is the man who has enough.

00:22:27:18 - 00:22:31:17
Dennis
And that gets me off of the treadmill, right?

00:22:31:19 - 00:22:36:10
Charles
You know who May comes up as a perfect example of that in my mind.

00:22:36:11 - 00:22:38:22
Charles
Keanu Reeves well.

00:22:38:23 - 00:22:39:02
Charles
No.

00:22:39:02 - 00:22:41:19
Charles
No no no no. Keanu Reeves is one of the ones.

00:22:41:19 - 00:22:43:13
Charles
Who gets it right. Right.

00:22:43:13 - 00:22:45:09
Charles
But like, okay.

00:22:45:10 - 00:22:47:05
Charles
Robin Williams.

00:22:47:07 - 00:22:48:15
Charles
Yes.

00:22:48:17 - 00:23:17:21
Charles
Right. Like he spent his whole life making people happy was one of the warmest, most inviting, highly successful. I mean, reached the pinnacles of acting in comedy. Right. But still took his own life. Right? Like there was still a place where he felt so un satisfied and empty and lonely that he was just die. You know, there's nothing more for me here.

00:23:17:23 - 00:23:37:10
Charles
And I think that's what we're talking about here is a lot of men get to this point where they've done the human doing, they've the tasks and the things are checked off and they're like, wait a second, there's there's still something missing. I still don't love me. Why do I not love me?

00:23:37:14 - 00:23:38:11
Charles
Right?

00:23:38:15 - 00:24:07:17
Charles
Yes. And unfortunately, a lot of times that only happens in the context of relationship. Like we only find that usually in relationship with, with men. Like we have to go inside and do this process first alone. But the unfortunate thing is that men think that once we complete all the tasks, that that'll be enough. And if we don't have connection, like genuine connection, we die.

00:24:07:19 - 00:24:35:09
Charles
So, like I. I used to be a massage therapist. Right. And we there was this study that they showed us and took two capuchin monkeys. Right. One had an artificial mother, but all the physical nutrition and shelter and everything it needed. Right. But it just had like a doll for a mother. The other monkey, the baby got actual time with its real mother.

00:24:35:09 - 00:25:21:23
Charles
Apart from that, everything identical. Well, the one that didn't have real connection died. The one that not have actual connection with another being just died. Yeah, like. And it's like our souls need that connection. And unfortunately, what men, you know, we find women and there's this beautiful thing that happens when the masculine and feminine merged together. But there is a certain type of connection that we can only get with other men where we're truly seen, heard, understood, and that we will accept validation from my wife, or my mother can offer me kindness and words of affirmation.

00:25:21:23 - 00:25:39:02
Charles
And no matter how much or correction or you know, something I need, but because it's coming from them, I'm like, yeah, you're supposed to say that. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, there's this subconscious thing that just can't accept it from them. But when it comes from a brother. Yep. You know what I mean.

00:25:39:04 - 00:25:40:04
Dennis
Of course I know what you mean.

00:25:40:05 - 00:25:57:02
Charles
It fucking penetrates, dude. And it's like, oh, shit. All right. Cool. And that's whether that's being challenged or encouraged, right? It's like there's this unexplainable power when we connect with each other.

00:25:57:04 - 00:25:59:04
Charles
That's from.

00:25:59:06 - 00:26:00:15
Dennis
From what? I don't want to let you finish.

00:26:00:15 - 00:26:02:05
Charles
Your set. No no no, no. You're good. Go ahead.

00:26:02:06 - 00:26:04:10
Charles
I was going to continue to ramble and.

00:26:04:12 - 00:26:06:03
Charles
No, no.

00:26:06:05 - 00:26:09:05
Dennis
But you're saying something important, which is why I'm getting hyped and I'm trying.

00:26:09:05 - 00:26:14:20
Charles
To, like, be like, oh, well, let me say something. Yeah. No, no, no, I got to shut up sometimes. You said no, so I. Dude.

00:26:14:20 - 00:26:15:21
Dennis
I'm Italian. I mean.

00:26:15:24 - 00:26:16:10
Charles
You know.

00:26:16:11 - 00:26:17:00
Dennis
If you ever see.

00:26:17:00 - 00:26:19:01
Charles
A bunch of Italians at a dinner table together, if you.

00:26:19:01 - 00:26:44:15
Dennis
Don't interrupt, you don't get to talk. Yeah. So, so so when you talk about the difference between female getting validation from women, which, by the way, there's a lot of dudes out there I want to I want to say two things. Let me let me get both of these out because my brain went in two different directions.

00:26:44:16 - 00:27:31:24
Dennis
I'll give a roadmap. One thing I want to talk about is the value of being validated by men, and why that's specifically important for men without shitting on women in any way. Because that's not what I'm here to do. But the second thing is guys who have had a complicated relationship with their own masculine identity because of, you know, maybe having, you know, no dad around or haven't had an abusive dad or some scenario where they develop hostile relationships toward men and they get big titty in the sky syndrome, and they go go around looking for validation from women.

00:27:31:24 - 00:27:35:23
Dennis
So two different things. How does this how does this hey.

00:27:35:23 - 00:27:55:08
Andrew
Man, stop spinning your wheels. If you're serious about leveling up your career, your relationships, and your mindset, it's time to man up at man up Life Coaching. We cut the excuses and build discipline, confidence, and purpose. Book your free strategy session now at Man Up Life Coaching.

00:27:55:10 - 00:28:06:04
Andrew
Don't fill it out if you're not ready to grind, but if you are. This call could change your life. Man up life coaching. Elite life coaching for men by men.

00:28:06:06 - 00:28:33:24
Dennis
Rude itself in why it's lonely at the top. It's it's lonely at the top. Because the guys who are successful often, often not always, but often. And I know this is somebody who coaches frickin multimillionaires, you know, and not to put your business on the street, but you're making millions of dollars. So, you know, you can speak to this.

00:28:34:01 - 00:29:09:00
Dennis
You know, you're before and after. It's very impressive. So you're coming into this echelon of financial success where I think you're probably starting to see, you know, you're you're formatting your hard drive going, Not quite what I thought it was going to be. Right. So so here are my two points my A and my B. In both cases, you have a man who is driven to look good on paper so that he can tell men how you like me now, because he's had a narrative that said he's less than.

00:29:09:01 - 00:29:47:02
Dennis
Whereas those guys might not have been thinking that that was his narrative and he didn't realize it, but what he thought he was responding to was actually something he was putting out. He was distancing himself from men because he saw them as competition instead of his friends and helpers. Also, the other guy who's driven to success, is the guy who feels it's kind of incel vibes, like he he's he's hateful toward women and he wants to be like, look how big my financial dick is, how you like me.

00:29:47:02 - 00:30:18:20
Dennis
Now I make more than your father or whatever. And in both cases, it's not a healthy reason to, to amass financial wealth. He's not looking for security. He's looking for social power. Sure. To compensate for this, like little dick energy, sorry to say it, but. And I'm not trying to shame anybody. I don't care what size your dick is on.

00:30:18:20 - 00:30:53:12
Dennis
Give a fuck. Lesbians do really well with no dick. So I'm not trying to hate on you, but I'm just saying, in man world, little dick energy means you're trying to compensate instead of just being humble, except in what you're working with. So here's where I'm going with this. Yet if you are a man who is constantly on the, hoop jump, you know, biscuit treadmill where you're checking boxes to try to get wherever there is, I'm telling you.

00:30:53:12 - 00:31:28:15
Dennis
And I'm going to cite case like, like case study here. And when I say case study, I mean my own cases without throwing the guy under the bus, without compromising his specifics. I'm going to say there's a guy I know, okay, in my organization who dot dot, dot. Okay. This guy, casually tells me he made $2 million last year and he goes, not bad, right?

00:31:28:17 - 00:31:59:01
Dennis
But he's looking for me to be really impressed with that number. And I have guys who are high honors. And also, that's not what's most interesting for me about a person. So I'm like, yeah, that's really good. The reason he's saying it is because he wants me to go, damn, you're the man. And that's that's not what's going to do it for me.

00:31:59:02 - 00:32:23:09
Dennis
What's going to do it for me is more I'm looking at you in terms of your character, you know. And are you happy? If you're happy, I'm happy. I don't give a fuck. So. So this guy is currently in a 4000 square foot house. And says he hates his house. He and his wife and his two kids.

00:32:23:10 - 00:32:43:17
Dennis
You know, they bought it when he was making $400,000 a year. And now that he's making, like, 2 million a year, he feels that it's not appropriate. He's like, I've gotten kind of fat. I need to lose weight. So I envy people who are in shape. I have two kids. I have friends who have three and four kids.

00:32:43:17 - 00:33:13:08
Dennis
I envy them for having a bigger family. I feel like they're more of a man than me because they're fathering more kids. Yeah, I don't have the most intimate relationship with my wife. I'm envious of guys who are obviously both in a more romantic relationship and who are banging like, teenagers. I so throughout the week, I'm happy because at my job I can check boxes, and the more I check boxes, the more I feel productive.

00:33:13:09 - 00:33:29:18
Dennis
The more I feel productive, the happier I feel. I have no time for friends because I don't even know what friends are. I don't trust people at this earning level because it seems like everybody's being your friend because they're looking for a freaking handout. I don't trust people like you're my friend now. Where were you when I was down and out?

00:33:29:18 - 00:33:55:04
Dennis
And then on top of all of that, he's wanting to share space with people who are in his tax bracket because he wants to be the man, but he's finding himself low key, competing with him at the same time as being friends with them, which is complicated. So my point for saying all of this is he doesn't want to live in a four in a 4000ft square house.

00:33:55:04 - 00:34:16:02
Dennis
I'm like, well, how big do you want it to be? He's like bigger than that. I'm like, okay, how does your wife feel about the house? Oh, she loves it. How do your kids feel about the house? He's like, oh, well, there are kids there. You know, to them it's probably like this giant house. I'm like, do you think they're worried about the baseboards not being modern?

00:34:16:03 - 00:34:41:15
Dennis
Do you think they're worried about, you know, the paint needing to be stepped up or the light fixtures being appropriate for a $2 million salary? He's like, well, no. I mean, when you put it that way. I said, do you see? I said, so what do you do on a Saturday? He's like, usually that's when I sit around like super depressed that my house isn't bigger, that my interior is fucked up.

00:34:41:15 - 00:35:10:20
Dennis
And it it doesn't look like money. I want people to know I have money so that they know. Yeah, that's who I am. I'm not going to even lie. That's what's happening with me. And so I'm looking at this guy and I'm thinking, if if this state of being is the is the price he's paying for making, you know, 2 million a year, I'd rather he made less and did more things, like you said, be a human being.

00:35:10:20 - 00:35:39:16
Dennis
So I my my suggestion to him as an authority in his life rented authority was hey bro, here's what I want you to do this Saturday. Instead of looking at your house through the eyes of of scarcity, which is a nuts thing to say considering what he's working with. Sure. I want you to think to yourself that when your kids are.

00:35:39:17 - 00:36:06:01
Dennis
30, 40, 50, they're going to have memories of having been six years old, nine years old, whatever stage they're at now. And they're going to remember they had a giant house. They're going to remember the tiles, they're going to remember the smells. They're going to remember the baseboards. They're not going to see it with judgment. They're going to think we had this awesome home.

00:36:06:01 - 00:36:38:02
Dennis
And they're going to remember that on Saturdays, dad was often, often his office somewhere, and his energy was not present and not peaceful because he was worried about something. And the thing he was worried about was having a bigger house and more money. So this Saturday, why don't you recognize you have an opportunity to affect what their childhood memories are going to be right now?

00:36:38:02 - 00:37:01:05
Dennis
You can author what their memories will be. Yeah. Why don't you try giving them the memory on Saturdays? My dad played with us, Neil. On Saturdays. My dad didn't care if we wrote on the walls because homie was balling. So if we break something, daddy's got the money to fix it.

00:37:01:11 - 00:37:02:05
Charles
Yeah.

00:37:02:07 - 00:37:05:02
Dennis
Like, you know what I mean. Does that feel.

00:37:05:04 - 00:37:07:01
Charles
You feel that. Yeah, yeah.

00:37:07:03 - 00:37:08:14
Dennis
What you got to say to that?

00:37:08:15 - 00:37:35:05
Charles
Well, I mean, that internal condition has to change, right? That's I agree with you that it almost becomes at that point, okay, what is the next level the House going to do or any next level going to do? If your state of being is currently it's not enough, then the next level is not going to be enough either, right?

00:37:35:06 - 00:37:58:05
Charles
Like the prerequisite for expansion is gratitude and appreciation in life. And if you know, I and I get this because this is a when you're successful and when you're motivated, it's a it is a is it a it's a teeter totter that's very easy to get caught up in right where it's like, no, no, no, I've got to push harder.

00:37:58:05 - 00:38:23:10
Charles
I've got to do more. Right. And so for instance, in my life right now, I've got an infant, I got a five week old baby, right? And I work from home. And so I get to spend time with her, which is amazing, right? I actually get to be a part of raising my child, and I'm not going in an office, you know, eight, ten, 12 hours a day.

00:38:23:12 - 00:38:51:23
Charles
But she exposes me, dude. Right. Because so when I'm not present and I'm the human doing right. Instead of just being, she'll tell on me. She'll start crying instantly. So I'll be holding her right. And if I'm not engaged in eye contact with her, or if I'm not fully present in whatever's happening in the room, like we have family here right now, right?

00:38:51:24 - 00:39:15:01
Charles
If I'm looking at my phone or watching the TV or something, she'll start crying instantly, you know what I mean? Like, she she will sense the lack of connection and the lack of presence, and she'll tell me, you know what I mean? Through getting disgruntled through crying and whatnot. It's a direct feedback loop that I'm so appreciative of at the moment.

00:39:15:02 - 00:39:38:05
Charles
Right. Because this is something that even though I coach this or teach this, I personally have to make a concerted effort not to let all the tasks or the accomplishments or the next goals constantly steal my attention from what's the most important and valuable thing in my life, which are the relationships that I have, right?

00:39:38:06 - 00:40:03:08
Dennis
Let me let me go in there and clarify that, because you and I are talking at a level that's very comfortable, but the average dude might hear you throw in some of these very well thought ideas around, and it's moving the streams, moving a little fast for them. And I, I say that because I'm realizing, like, you just threw a gem up there when you said a prerequisite for expansion is gratitude.

00:40:03:08 - 00:40:05:12
Dennis
And what a motivation.

00:40:05:14 - 00:40:13:22
Charles
Yeah, yeah. So sorry. What was the. So so yeah, the prerequisite for it is gratitude and presence.

00:40:13:23 - 00:40:50:00
Dennis
And presence. Sorry. That's what that's what okay. Gratitude and present okay. So right okay. So that makes more sense because that both of those gratitude and presence lend themselves more to human being. I can be grateful and I can be present. Presence is and presence. Being present means what? Focusing so much on the doing. Peace. Now I'm going to snag the mic and say something from my experience to that.

00:40:50:02 - 00:41:12:05
Dennis
Here's this man, Charles Ledbetter, who has a baby five weeks, five weeks, not months, weeks, fresh, fresh, right at the oven and at the same time, how many how many properties are you managing right now? In total.

00:41:12:07 - 00:41:14:22
Charles
182.

00:41:14:24 - 00:42:07:01
Dennis
Listen to what he just said, y'all. 182 properties. And this is a relatively new gig for you. This is you've reinvented yourself as a property manager, sort of real estate mogul, right? As part of your personal renaissance before guy with some challenges after, quote, successful guy. And as far as male loneliness goes, your, you're admitting that there's a certain amount of time that you're able to give your wife and, you know, and she reciprocates that, and that satisfies a need necessarily, that you have like plants, like water, dirt, sunshine.

00:42:07:03 - 00:42:39:09
Dennis
You need that dynamic with your wife. Yeah. You have a five week old baby. And I'm sure you're hyper aware that for that baby, the camera and the microphone are on. Everything that that baby is recording right now is for the first time, and you're being really careful what those first inputs look like, because that's going to form how this person understands the world and moves through the world.

00:42:39:09 - 00:43:19:07
Dennis
So there's probably some concern in the back of your head. I want to make sure I split the difference between providing for and protecting this child, and also them remembering my face, my voice, and my Vive, being peaceful and friendly and loving and accommodating. We don't want to bring, you know, OG Charles into this base. We want to let that dude go to pasture and we want to kinder, gentler Charles in this fathering environment.

00:43:19:08 - 00:43:47:16
Dennis
Right. So all of that, just to say, when you say a prerequisite for expansion is gratitude and presence. I want to reframe that, not improvising on it or no, I should say I'm not trying to improve on it, but I want to offer a man app life coaching sort of ism that also supports that. So if you're listening, stay with me here.

00:43:47:18 - 00:43:57:16
Dennis
I have made observations over the 30 years that I've been operating in this space.

00:43:57:18 - 00:44:34:06
Dennis
17 in literal education and 13 plus now in coaching under the brand manager life coaching, there is linear drive and there is lateral drift. Stay with me. This is an interesting piece. Okay. Many men interested only in literal drive. Literal drive if you can't see my hand gestures, is starting from the ground and going up like you're building a tower just straight up.

00:44:34:08 - 00:45:07:01
Dennis
And we all know that if you go straight up, there's a point at which that thing is going to become structurally unsound because it needs a wider base. If you go on lateral drift so that you're establishing the width of the base because you're afraid of having your thing topple over, then you're not actually making any linear progress.

00:45:07:01 - 00:45:47:19
Dennis
You're always setting the foundation. And there are the guys who are who have that linear drive and they get their there, they get to jumpy, they're too triggered and they end up building and it falls down building and it falls down. Then there are the other guys who were lying on the couch, hitting the weed pen, talking about what they're going to do that are constantly making spreadsheets and researching and watching how to videos or whatever, that that will spend years getting their ducks in a row, but they never actually they have more of a passive approach than an aggressive approach.

00:45:47:21 - 00:46:32:17
Dennis
And in coaching, I like to coach to marry the lateral, the linear drive and the lateral drift. And the example I use is a pyramid. A pyramid is a perfect structure because it scales infinitely as long as you're building laterally and linearly at the same time now. And so I'm going to go even further with this. I'm going to give you an example of linear thinking, an example of lateral thinking, because it is the linear thinking that keeps successful men on the loneliness treadmill.

00:46:32:18 - 00:47:06:23
Dennis
They're always just building up, and they are not building a lateral component into their life because for them, lateral lateral being doesn't seem to have as much value as linear doing because you only appreciate the value in retrospect, you appreciate it when your shit falls down because you created this Tower of Babel trying to heaven that didn't have, you know, the structure necessary to reinforce it.

00:47:06:23 - 00:47:44:09
Dennis
And boom, here we go. So so listen to my linear versus lateral piece here. If I ask a linear thinker and this is the guy with the this is your robot engineer brand. You know, strictly business informational, transactional communicator. Dude if you ask or woman. But in this case we're talking about men. If you ask for instance, like a guy will say.

00:47:44:11 - 00:48:14:13
Dennis
I look up in the sky, he'll say, data point. There are clouds in the sky. Data point. Those are cumulus clouds. Data point. Cumulus clouds usually mean rain. Data point. I should probably bring an umbrella. Boom. Time to go to work. Now, if you have ADHD, if you're a creative, if you're a pot smoker, you know what lateral thinking sounds like.

00:48:14:14 - 00:48:42:10
Dennis
Instead of being logical linear thinking, it is associative thinking. You associate one idea to another idea. So a lateral thinking thinker will look up and go, there's clouds in the sky. That cloud kind of looks like a pineapple. Did you know that a pineapple is a bromeliad? Did you know that the only bromeliad native to the US is Spanish moss, which hangs off of live oaks?

00:48:42:12 - 00:48:49:00
Dennis
Live oaks? They got live oaks in in the in the Gulf? I could go for some John Malaya, bro. When's the last.

00:48:49:00 - 00:48:55:01
Charles
Time out of my head? I know you didn't go first.

00:48:55:07 - 00:49:17:04
Dennis
John Malaya with some smoke source. And funny how they say smoke could set a smoke. It's kind of like ice cream instead of ice cream. And then, you know, two hours it's gone by. And somebody who's a linear thinker is like, dog, how did you get from from there's clouds in the sky to, to jambalaya. And by the way, you forgot your umbrella.

00:49:17:10 - 00:49:18:17
Charles
Yeah.

00:49:18:19 - 00:49:20:07
Dennis
You know what I'm saying.

00:49:20:08 - 00:49:21:07
Charles
Yeah.

00:49:21:09 - 00:49:51:08
Dennis
But at the same time, the guy who is an associate, who is a lateral thinker and who is an associative thinker is also an idea person, and he's more likely to have an entrepreneurial spirit, whereas the guy who is a linear thinker is more likely to be calculated, doesn't improvise very well, and relies heavily on structure and systems.

00:49:51:09 - 00:50:37:20
Dennis
Right? Yeah. So in coaching and I know that you know this, but I'm creating an interesting alternative framework for it. It's a nice model, right. If you're going to be someone who has that linear drive, you were going to have to learn the value of lateral being. Now for and here we go. I'm going to land it talking about the male loneliness epidemic, talking about why it's lonely at the top, talking about why you have no friends, building friendships, uses your resources, borrows from the resources that are driving you upward.

00:50:37:20 - 00:51:08:05
Dennis
And it builds those that those lateral, that lateral foundation that doesn't seem necessary to you because you're not thinking with emotional intelligence. You're thinking with logical, systematic, linear engineer, structural intelligence. I know I just dropped a bomb. So, Charles, I think of what I just said.

00:51:08:07 - 00:51:39:23
Charles
Oh, that was phenomenal, man. That's so good. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah I really I love the lateral drift and, you know literal drive concept. The pyramids also a perfect analogy for that. And it does. It speaks exactly to what I was saying perfectly. You know I've realized that personally I cannot grow beyond what my foundation will support because I, I am the idea guy, right.

00:51:39:24 - 00:52:07:06
Charles
Like I watched my dad do it. I wash my dad, build businesses and burn them down like it was nothing. Yeah, I mean, like, I mean, he just he fucking owned restaurants, managed hotels, managed bands, he sold insurance, like, you know, had his own insurance company, but then he just all of it, he just burned it all to the ground because he had no concept of lateral drift.

00:52:07:07 - 00:52:39:17
Charles
Right? His relationships with other men were superficial, right? He didn't take care of the most important relationships at home. Right. And, you know, and for him, alcohol. Right. And that was all at the center of that. But I found, as I've gauged and tracked my own little growth pattern here, that I will go for these waves of massive growth.

00:52:39:18 - 00:53:15:10
Charles
Right. And immediately we'll go, okay, that was cool. Right. And you think you hear all the motivation guys read online and they're like, oh no, now's the time to not let off the gas and always forward and you know, never. And all that shit sounds real cool and macho. But the reality is, if I don't go spend some quality time with my wife and my child, if I don't have my best friends and their families over for fight night this Saturday, like I'm going to do, and they're going to all bring their families and we're all going to ignore the fights and just catch up with each other.

00:53:15:16 - 00:53:18:00
Charles
But it's a good excuse, you know what I mean?

00:53:18:01 - 00:53:18:04
Dennis
Yeah.

00:53:18:04 - 00:53:45:23
Charles
Yeah, yeah. Right. And like, if I don't do that, doesn't matter how much fucking literal literal drive of God, right? It doesn't matter what I've just accomplished or what huge growth it has just happened or what's next, I will burn all that shit to the ground because I will become miserable. I will become lonely. I will fucking neglect the things that have allowed me to hold and to contain more in my life anyway, right?

00:53:46:02 - 00:53:50:05
Charles
The things that set the stage for me to be able to drive up.

00:53:50:06 - 00:53:55:09
Dennis
Absolutely. So here's no, no. And so go ahead and say you say yeah.

00:53:55:10 - 00:54:20:24
Charles
And so that's what I have realized is that it's the teeter totter. I give massive respect and attention to if I'm if I've got growth projected right, that I've got to make sure that I'm paying attention to who and what is immediately around me. Because if my soul's not fed, I won't be able to support that growth and sustain it anyway.

00:54:21:00 - 00:54:41:18
Dennis
Like that's exactly that is absolutely, exactly right. And the note I'm going to ride out on here because I'm trying to honor our I literally have a session coming up in a minute and we have some technical problems getting this thing started. So I hate to rush this, but in a way it's probably good because, Charles, I know you and me, we will we will run with it.

00:54:41:20 - 00:55:10:01
Dennis
We're going to revisit this topic. But I was once told by a, a magazine editor, don't state the problem without offering a solution. Don't leave your listener in the Valley. So here's what I'm going to say, really simply. And then I'm going to deuce out without a whole lot of fanfare. I'm Dennis Procopio, I am the bro coach.

00:55:10:03 - 00:55:31:10
Dennis
I am the owner of Man Up Life Coaching where we do coach success driven man to understand what success is and how to not only create it, but how to manage it. That's the part they don't teach you. I'm here with Charles Ledbetter, who is a coach in his own space. He has come through man up life coaching.

00:55:31:10 - 00:56:00:20
Dennis
He is a brother who coaches brothers as well. I have a tremendous amount of respect for this man, and we are here to tell you that if you are a success driven man, if you're trying to, it's just like being at the gym. If you're trying to grow your grow your upper body. It might sound weird, but don't skip leg day because your tree is only going to grow as as tall as your trunk is wide.

00:56:00:22 - 00:56:14:16
Dennis
Okay? Which is why we're. How about that one that was good to. Right. And yeah. And so speaking of Live Oaks, not that John Malaya, though.

00:56:14:18 - 00:56:16:12
Dennis
God damn it, we.

00:56:16:12 - 00:56:17:18
Charles
Could never get off of this.

00:56:17:18 - 00:56:47:09
Dennis
Then if you're a guy who is who is successful and has no friends and feeling lonely, we would like you to consider the value of things that have more to do with being than doing. Charles nailed it when he said, you don't just be a human doing. You have to be a human being, not how are you doing, human?

00:56:47:09 - 00:57:15:15
Dennis
How are you being human? And that means things like love, relationships, mutual support of friends and family and God damn it, taken some time off to sharpen your ax so that you can keep cutting those trees down at the same rate you did when you started. Now, if you're interested in all of the messaging here and you somebody who wants to like, follow and subscribe, I urge you to do that.

00:57:15:16 - 00:57:44:16
Dennis
Visit bro coach where you can hear all of our stuff and subscribe on your favorite listening platform, Spotify, Apple, all that crap. And until the next time we're a couple of bros who love you, dog. Brotherly love. Congratulations on being financially successful! If you're there, keep grinding. If you're not there yet. But for the love of God, we want you to work.

00:57:44:17 - 00:57:48:04
Dennis
To live, not live to work. Can I get an amen?

00:57:48:08 - 00:57:49:13
Charles
Amen, Reverend.

00:57:49:15 - 00:57:51:01
Dennis
Oh. All right, on.

00:57:51:02 - 00:57:52:14
Dennis
That note.

00:57:52:16 - 00:57:54:19
Dennis
Take care and we'll see you on the next one.