Ep 7: The Brotherhood Epidemic: Why Climbing the Ladder Kills Your Friendships

You've got the career. The money. The family. So why don't you have a single guy you can actually call when life gets heavy? You've got work friends, rusty college buddies, your wife's friends—but no actual bros. No real brotherhood. And admitting you want male friends feels weird as hell.

In this episode, Dennis Procopio (The Bro Coach®) and Andrew Bontz tackle the uncomfortable truth: the higher you climb, the fewer real friends you have. Most guys have no idea how to fix it without feeling like they're "trying to pull some dudes."

🎯 TIMESTAMPS 0:00 - Why Successful Men Have No Real Friends 6:33 - "I'd Like More Male Friends" (And Why It's Uncomfortable) 7:27 - Making Your Wife Your Best Friend (Why It Backfires) 28:18 - "A Friend in Need Is a Pest" 44:54 - The 11-Piece Affirmation Dennis Uses 46:13 - How to Beat Loneliness and Enjoy Being Alone 47:36 - Practical Steps: Hobbies and Finding Your People

📌 WHAT YOU'LL LEARN

• Why high-achievers consistently struggle with real male friendships
• The trap of making your wife your therapist and best friend
• Dennis's brutal truth: "A friend in need is a pest"
• How to be your own best friend before building brotherhood
• Self-validation practices to overwrite negative self-talk
• Practical steps to meet guys without being weird about it

✅ THIS EPISODE IS FOR YOU IF: → You've climbed the ladder and have no real friends at the top → Your only friends are work colleagues or guys you barely talk to → You feel weird admitting you want male friendships → You're tired of surface-level relationships and want actual brotherhood → You're ready to be your own best friend before building real connections

🔗 READY TO GO DEEPER? Schedule your complimentary 30-minute strategy session: 👉 https://www.manuplifecoaching.com/application

📱 CONNECT WITH US 🌐 https://brocoach.com 📸 Instagram: @manuplifecoaching 🎵 TikTok: @manuplifecoaching

ABOUT THE BRO COACH® PODCAST Not red-pill. Not therapy. Just the evolved man's blueprint for strength, presence, and purpose. Hosted by Dennis Procopio, founder of Man-UP! Life Coaching, with 20,000+ hours coaching driven men who succeed professionally but struggle with meaning, relationships, and inner fulfillment.

#MaleFriendship #LonelinessEpidemic #BrotherhoodForMen #HighAchievers #LifeCoachingForMen #MensWork #Masculinity #TheBroCoach #ManUpLifeCoaching #MensCoaching #MentalHealthForMen

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:05
Unknown
Most men want more. More clarity. More respect. More control over their lives. But few know how to get it. Welcome to the Bro Coach podcast with Dennis Procopio, the founder of Man Up Life Coaching and the man behind thousands of Transform Lives. Not Red pill, not therapy. Just the evolved man's blueprint for strength, presence and purpose.

00:00:23:16 - 00:00:35:08
Andrew
Welcome to another episode of the Bro Coach podcast. We are on episode seven. I am here with the bro coach himself, Dennis Procopio. Thanks for being here, man.

00:00:35:10 - 00:00:42:05
Dennis
Hey, man, thanks for having me. What do you got? On the menu for today. What are we doing?

00:00:42:07 - 00:01:14:11
Andrew
So many today? I wanted to talk about a topic that came up in our recent conversation. In one of our sessions, talking about friendship and doing a lot of research on words like the loneliness epidemic. And especially for high achieving men, where, you know, a lot of people have friends at work. Right. But the further you go up the ladder, the less friends you're going to have, because, you know, you have to be friends with your employees.

00:01:14:13 - 00:01:26:07
Andrew
Or at least you shouldn't. So we have to kind of dive in to that topic. And what we talked about on friendship and kind of how that connects to the guys in the, in the community.

00:01:26:09 - 00:01:31:08
Dennis
Cool. Where do you want to start with that?

00:01:31:10 - 00:01:52:24
Andrew
Why do you think most guys, have challenges around around friendship? You know, like, they have a lot of things figured out. Married kids. You know, they're 40 or something. Why do more guys struggle with that than they're willing to admit?

00:01:53:01 - 00:02:17:23
Dennis
So, you know, one of the things that I notice when guys come into Mana life coaching, is that they are down on themselves. That is a very common, consistent characteristic of dudes coming into coaching. They're down on themselves in some way. Now.

00:02:18:00 - 00:02:49:07
Dennis
A guy might be down on himself with millions of dollars in, you know, his, you know, portfolio and you know, a ton of crypto and, a couple of houses, nice cars, kids toys. And you say, well, why is this guy down on himself? Sometimes that guy will know why he's down on himself. I'm down on myself because I started from a place of scarcity.

00:02:49:07 - 00:03:29:03
Dennis
And even though I have a ton of money and assets and everything, there's still this voice in my head saying more and more and more and more and more. You gotta make more. You gotta do more, more and more and more. And so I kind of feel like I'm learning that enough is never enough, and I feel like I'm always working and I don't know how to get off the treadmill, establish some, work life balance and be present and be happy and offer my wife the presence that she's looking for.

00:03:29:03 - 00:04:14:07
Dennis
My kids. Whatever. So that's a version of a guy who comes in and is down on himself, even though he seems to have on paper what a lot of people are looking for. Then there is the more typical, you know, down on myself, because I don't think I'm living up to my full performance potential. So the guy who says, you know, we're coming into 2026 and back in 2021, I told myself that I was going to, whatever, get promoted, consolidate my time, start a new business, and lean into entrepreneurship.

00:04:14:09 - 00:04:46:12
Dennis
The clock is ticking, and I feel like I'm still always just getting bills paid. I'm like, I'm not there yet. I'm not. I'm a high earner, but I'm not killing it. And on top of that, I'm having relationship challenges. And I feel like that's got me stuck. There's another version of a client who comes in and says, I'm not in a relationship.

00:04:46:14 - 00:05:26:02
Dennis
I kind of live to work. I'm, either at work doing my job or at home kind of killing time. And I really feel like what's missing from my life is social. I'm trying to meet women on apps, and it's a frickin cesspool. You can't go out anywhere by yourself without looking like a lurker. So I kind of feel like if I had a group of bros to hang out with, you know, it would increase the chances of meeting, you know, female friends in that friend group and somehow getting plugged into a network.

00:05:26:04 - 00:05:58:20
Dennis
It's very rarely that I have a client come through and say, oh, I've got a totally awesome friend network. I've got like, great bro relationships. And that's all going really well. But I've got this other problem and that's the reason I'm here. It's just nuts. But a cold condition for coming into their therapy, which this overlaps with therapy.

00:05:58:20 - 00:06:33:00
Dennis
This meeting my business what I do. Being a pro coach or coming into some sort of, you know, accountability coaching, it seems like a code condition that I have guys who are saying I'd like more male friends. I don't feel like I've got that guy or that group of guys who I feel really like, close to, and it's uncomfortable for dudes to even say that, you know what I'm talking about, right?

00:06:33:02 - 00:06:37:01
Andrew
Yeah, because sounds kind of kind of gay play.

00:06:37:03 - 00:06:57:04
Dennis
Which. And if you and if you are gay, like, you're within the game, bro. Because you got a buddy in benefits. But for the average straight guy, whether he's in a relationship or not, the idea of going out there and being like, I gotta figure out a way to pull some men. That's just not how we think.

00:06:57:06 - 00:06:58:24
Dennis
You know?

00:06:59:01 - 00:07:27:21
Andrew
Well, it's funny too. It's like The overlap is a bit that interesting story where, you know, married dude, most of his friends are friends of his wife's friends. Right? Or friends of other people, or maybe his high school friends. Like, he has these two groups of friends where he has these rusty friends from like high school or college, and they kind of like talk once a year.

00:07:27:23 - 00:07:58:20
Andrew
And all they do is they talk about what happened on the varsity football, you know, circuit or whatever, you know, and then they have their wife's friends who are just kind of situational, right. But I find that one of the things, you know, when I was married, one of the things that I missed, was I didn't have the dude to talk to about the stuff I should be talking dude stuff about.

00:07:58:20 - 00:08:15:08
Andrew
And I tried to, like, make my wife my best friend, and that was a mistake for me. I mean, do you find a lot of guys where they kind of turn their wife into their best friend, their therapist, their accountability partner kind of thing?

00:08:15:10 - 00:08:35:16
Dennis
Yeah, it it works. It works in both directions. So, first of all, I want to acknowledge what you're saying. Just that thing that you said. I get it all the time where somebody is like, man, I'm really bummed. I'm like, why? What's what's the deal? And they're like, well, I have this group of friends who have been my friends since college, you know?

00:08:35:16 - 00:09:01:07
Dennis
And so we still get together, but we've kind of grown apart. Either I have kids now and they don't, or they have kids, or we all have kids. But when we get together, it's just not kind of exactly the same. I feel like I need, like, local friends. I feel like I need somebody who lives nearby who's just like a bro.

00:09:01:13 - 00:09:23:04
Dennis
That would be like when we were kids. Like somebody you'd freaking play Call of Duty author or something and just kind of hang out with and, you know, have a catch with, you know, frickin lie in the grass with the, you know, a blade of, you know, grass between your teeth with your, you know, look at the sky and you know, the Stand by me years.

00:09:23:04 - 00:09:43:07
Dennis
You know, where you're like when I grew up. I'm going to have, whatever kind of car or whatever like that, bro, that you're just friends with, that you just kind of, like, dream with. And, you know, you could be like, oh, my wife's being a bitch. Oh, dude, mine too, or whatever. Like, bro, friendships are critically important.

00:09:43:12 - 00:09:47:05
Dennis
And as you said.

00:09:47:07 - 00:10:08:19
Dennis
You know, there's an expression, you know, make new friends, but keep the old one is silver, but the other is gold. Okay, cool story, but as if there are people that you're only meeting with a couple of times a year. You're going to start doing just what you said. Hey, honey. So I've been playing with my computer, and I, you know, I've been playing with ChatGPT.

00:10:08:23 - 00:10:29:13
Dennis
And now look at all these things that I can make it do. It's got all these features. I don't care. Well, did you even understand? Like this benefits us? I don't care. Do you even know how it works? Magic. I don't care like I love you. I'm sorry. You need somebody who cares to talk to that stuff.

00:10:29:13 - 00:11:00:05
Dennis
I don't care whether it's your Jeep. In my case, your motorcycle. In my case, your, computer nerd crap. In my case, and a lot of my clients have this overlap with me. They have this, that they want to talk about, and their wife is just like, I love you, but I really don't. This isn't interesting for me, but she wants you to watch romantic frickin TV shows with her, like The Bachelor or whatever crap they have.

00:11:00:07 - 00:11:17:15
Dennis
You know that you're supposed to sit there with the tears in your eye and go, oh, this is so believable and really touching. She wants you to be her her friend and and then and then and then she was like, this are the. And I was like, oh my God, am I right? And you're supposed to go, yeah.

00:11:17:16 - 00:11:43:12
Dennis
Oh, God, screw her. She's terrible. You were right in that situation. She wants a girlfriend. You want a boyfriend or not? A boyfriend, but a boyfriend. Right? And we're back. And, the the, What, the big bro closet. But but, but seriously, nice room. Really, really neat guy friends. And it's becoming more and more.

00:11:43:14 - 00:11:46:09
Dennis
It's becoming less and less of a thing.

00:11:46:11 - 00:12:15:08
Andrew
Yeah. I was listening to a podcast by Mark Manson. He did a, like a four hour episode on friendship, and he talked about how he actually made the statement that, you know, friends are more important than arguably your marriage, like in your overall like mental health and longevity and, and things like that. And it was a really interesting dynamic to it.

00:12:15:08 - 00:12:36:21
Andrew
And I think it brings in more to more of the community aspect of it, to our think that most high performing guys, the probably a little bit more lone wolf or it's like, I'll just I'll just work. I don't really need friends. I'll just keep working because I'm good at it, you know? And I don't want to go to the playground and be like, Will you, will you be my friend?

00:12:37:02 - 00:12:38:08
Dennis
Like, right.

00:12:38:10 - 00:12:48:13
Andrew
I like you, and we like the same things. So maybe maybe we could, like, hang out and play Tonka trucks together, you know?

00:12:48:15 - 00:13:25:20
Dennis
Right, right. And, you know, so about that. So that's interesting, right? Because I think the there's a reason that alcohol and recreational drugs sort of a function in society, like I think men do get. Well, first of all, dudes don't like rejection. Dudes do not like rejection. We do not like rejection. So we would rather not ever put ourselves on the line.

00:13:25:20 - 00:13:42:15
Dennis
If there's a possibility of being rejected. And second of all, yeah, guys, don't call each other up and go, hey, what are you doing? You know, that's just not a thing. Hey, man. What's up? Everything okay? Yeah, I just saw some truck parked out in front of the the house. I was wonder, do you see it too? Yeah.

00:13:42:17 - 00:14:08:19
Dennis
Do you want to investigate? Get. Okay, I'll get a rock. You talk to your low emission, you know, but it's not just, you know, what you wearing? Yeah, well, it's not a thing, but men do want one. Friends. But then there's another thing, which is men want friends. But we're also not really interested in commitment. So on one hand, we want friends.

00:14:08:19 - 00:14:23:20
Dennis
But then on the other hand, we want the friend who's around when we want somebody to hang out with, but also somebody who's not going to be butthurt when they're like, hey, what are you doing? Not now, dude, spell one ton backwards. You know what I mean? I'm busy. I'm over here, I'm making a move and I'm hustling.

00:14:23:20 - 00:14:34:00
Dennis
I'm trying to put the, you know, turn, turn dollars into it to into bigger dollars, you know? Oh, no, I totally get it, man. I'll catch you on the rebound.

00:14:34:02 - 00:14:36:13
Andrew
Spell one time backwards.

00:14:36:15 - 00:14:39:10
Dennis
Sorry. That's like, what is that me?

00:14:39:11 - 00:14:50:01
Andrew
I was like, oh, I'm sitting here like, pondering that thought. It took me a second. So am is like.

00:14:50:03 - 00:15:22:00
Dennis
And that's exactly the kind of dumb shit that dudes are looking for for other dudes. Because somewhere there's a bunch of girls rolling their eyes, all looking at each other like guys are so dumb. Anyway, did you see The Bachelor? So, I mean, you're dad, right? Yes. Three girls and a, a matriarch in your house. That must really, really make you want some, bro.

00:15:22:02 - 00:15:26:18
Dennis
Like, like some balance.

00:15:26:20 - 00:15:52:20
Andrew
Yeah, man, it was a huge investment of intention that. I mean, I started, like, a men's group of, I'm. I'm divorced, so not married, but, a long term relationship. And, you know, I've spent a lot of I've had these moments throughout my life. Like, I joined a fraternity in college because I basically didn't know how to make friends.

00:15:52:20 - 00:16:12:23
Andrew
You know, it's it's like, oh, these guys look cool, and they get to hang out with all these hot chicks. So, like, I'll give them some money. So, like, we can, like, pretend to be brothers and then justify it, like it'll get me networking opportunities and jobs, future and my future version of me in college. But, you know, it wasn't true.

00:16:13:00 - 00:16:13:06
Dennis
So.

00:16:13:09 - 00:16:35:09
Andrew
It just takes so much intention. And in that podcast, they talked about the number of hours you needed to invest with somebody and to have like, a best friend. It takes like 200 hours. And if they want to be good friends, it takes like over 90 hours to the end. It's not like all at once. It's these little bite sized pieces.

00:16:35:09 - 00:16:59:07
Andrew
So the amount of intention, the amount of work, the amount of like, you know, commitment. Right? It's a big commitment, 200 hours that it takes to create that, you know, best friend energy is a lot. So, you know, I've been working on it for a couple of years, and I've made a little bit of addendum further into it than I was two years ago.

00:16:59:07 - 00:17:25:12
Andrew
But, you know, certainly still, I haven't figured it out. And there are times where I go lone wolf and kind of isolated and it's like, oh, shit, I haven't talked to my but my dudes and in a bit like I should, you know, go, go grab a beer while I don't drink, but, you know, to go grab a coffee, you're go for a hike in the woods or go chop a tree down or something.

00:17:25:14 - 00:17:50:20
Dennis
Yeah. Right. Right. So here's, here's, here's, I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to address this in two different ways. You started this by saying the loneliness epidemic. So as happy as I am to goof around and I will, I'll spend an hour with you. Go and pull my finger. Because I know that our audiences, guys who probably are like, I like this dude.

00:17:51:00 - 00:18:13:17
Dennis
They're just a couple of guys who you can tell they're smart, but they're not all like into themselves about it, and they seem like they're two. It'd be fun to hang out with, like, we've got our bases covered. We both like to. We both lift, you know, we're both guys who are in relationships and love the women that we're with.

00:18:13:19 - 00:18:47:06
Dennis
Don't really have relationship trauma. So that's interesting for other guys. Nobody wants to hang out. Let's see if you're always talking about some crazy, you know, psycho chick stuff. So like, you know, we check boxes, right? Or both. You know, we're both due to, like, play chess, you know, like, like I said, you know, I, I, I do, you know, I do the offroading thing with my Jeep, I ride, you know, I'm known to ride a motorcycle coast to coast from time to time.

00:18:47:08 - 00:19:06:19
Dennis
I think I'm a pretty interesting guy. I have, I like animals, I have a dog, I have a kid. I'm a special needs dad. Like, there's there is. I'm a I'm a coach for men. So hanging out with me, people are always like, so what's that like? You know, whatever. I've lived all over the place. I have stories New York, Philly, where I'm from, New Orleans, California.

00:19:06:22 - 00:19:37:24
Dennis
Like it. It makes for time well spent. And then you come back to your little, you know, your little tidal pool, and you're like, oh, that was nice. Whatever that was, you know, low stress hanging out but not trying to be like we've been doing man stuff, whatever. It's not like desperately masculine. Like we're going to go wear loincloths and like, drag our nutsack through the underbrush eating raw meat or whatever with, like, you know, war paint on our faces, you know?

00:19:37:24 - 00:20:05:10
Dennis
So so I think the guys my point was, I think the guys listening to us are like like basically, like you said, I'd have a beer with these bros. And I also don't drink. So, you know, I whatever have assessed Barilla with these brothers. But the loneliness piece is a separate conversation. And that's what I want to address.

00:20:05:12 - 00:20:13:07
Dennis
You ready? I'm going to do what I do. I'm going to say words. No.

00:20:13:09 - 00:20:34:20
Dennis
So I think there's you know, we all know the expression no mamas. And I want. And I think that guys like to imagine you're sorry. I'm right. I could go to space all by myself and I'd be fine. I could go live in Mars. I could go live in the cabin in the woods and, you know, not talk to anybody.

00:20:34:20 - 00:20:35:21
Dennis
I could do that.

00:20:35:21 - 00:20:58:16
Unknown
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00:20:58:16 - 00:21:05:09
Unknown
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00:21:05:09 - 00:21:33:07
Dennis
I think there's some male pride wrapped up in the idea that you could do that. Because the idea that you couldn't implies that you're socially needy. And I think that's almost kind of like seen as a weakness. So I think it's kind of like a, like a masculine sort of bragging, right. To be able to say, I don't need people.

00:21:33:09 - 00:21:48:06
Andrew
Yeah, yeah. I mean, because then it means you need you might need help or, you know, there's, there is that need word in there that if you add an E to it and then. Right. No guy wants to be that.

00:21:48:10 - 00:22:16:02
Dennis
No guy wants to be needy. You know, I have tools so that I don't have to be the guy who borrows shit. You know, I learned how to fix everything myself, so I don't have to ask somebody else to come over and fix it for me. And then I look like, you know, whatever, you know, and there's a fine line, which, I mean, that's what keeps a lot of guys from coming into coaching is because they're like, I don't want to admit that I need help, but they're more likely to come to me than they are to a therapist.

00:22:16:02 - 00:22:50:06
Dennis
So it's, you know, this is a good entry point for guys who are willing to accept that, you know, you have to have some humility and you have to accept that you do have mates. And we're social creatures, like it or not, you do actually benefit from having exchanges with other people. Now, here's a fun fact most of my guys are more on the introverted side than the extroverted side.

00:22:50:06 - 00:23:24:08
Dennis
Unsurprisingly, they're caveman. They are not super, you know, performative, you know, life of the party guys. They're. Unless you get them drunk or something. But that just on a on the average day they're not. So what happens. They fall into routines. What's the routine look like? Hey, I'm a bro of any age, 20s, frickin 50s, I don't care.

00:23:24:10 - 00:23:49:24
Dennis
I'm a guy. I open my eyes, I go, fuck. Another day. I don't know many men who go, hey, it's a great time to be alive. That's just not how most dudes wake up. They wake up like, shit. All right, let's go, let's go, let's go. I have one client who's always like he says, I literally just open my eyes and go flat out, and I jump out of bed.

00:23:50:05 - 00:24:20:00
Dennis
So I'm like, that's. That's what, guys, I just go, all right, cold water on my face. Let's go. So what do you do? Yeah, take a piss. You brush your teeth, you do some, you have some coffee for cooking. Whatever you address your email, crap, whatever. You go do a job. I don't care what you do. You go, you work from home, you go to a job, you do something.

00:24:20:02 - 00:24:33:14
Dennis
Now the dudes who work with other guys, there's a positive and negative to that. Have you ever done construction and.

00:24:33:15 - 00:24:34:11
Andrew
No.

00:24:34:13 - 00:24:55:23
Dennis
Okay. I've done I've done everything, but I've done construction. So I have I know you're laughing because you're thinking about me as the Easter Bunny in the Massapequa freaking Mall. I know, I know, I was the I dude, I've done every job. It's so dumb. I've done every job. But anyway, so we're talking about lonely guys. Not me in a frickin Easter Bunny costume.

00:24:55:23 - 00:25:21:07
Dennis
But anyway, what? That'll be our Easter episode. I'll talk about that. Totally bizarre there. Dude. Stunk. The fucking Easter Bunny costume stunk like some like like cigarets and alcohol and sweat and like, I got teenagers, like, coveted sitting on my lap. And I'm like, this is really what I'm doing for money. Kids are screaming because they're scared of me.

00:25:21:07 - 00:25:50:23
Dennis
I'm like, just get the candy. Take the picture, you know? Anyway, but I've done construction and I have to say, even though you can get pissy with each other from time to time and get into your little snit, and it kind of looks like a reality TV show, you know, the the the deal is when you work construction or you work whatever you put, you're putting a roof on a house.

00:25:50:23 - 00:26:30:11
Dennis
You're doing anything that involves manual labor working together. There really is something cathartic about that. And having been on both sides of this, having worked labor and trade and having worked, office jobs where you've got popcorn ceiling water cooler, fluorescent lights, cubicle, I would say I much prefer the labor and trade vibe than the office, you know, cubicle vibe.

00:26:30:13 - 00:27:06:22
Dennis
Move on up the ladder. My clients aren't cubicle guys. They're they're, you know, they're managers. They're L5 sixes, sevens, tens. Exactly. You know, C-suite dudes. The higher up in corporate you go, the less you think of people that you work with, his friends, and the more you think of them as, associates. And you can be friendly, but these aren't your friends, and that can be isolating.

00:27:06:24 - 00:27:29:14
Dennis
And I know that very well and that. Well, I'm friendly, but we're not friends. My work avatar and my home avatar are intentionally separate. Now, let's say you or somebody like myself who sits in an office, if you're listening to this, but you don't have any visual. I'm sitting in my home office and I'm recording this.

00:27:29:14 - 00:27:54:09
Dennis
I probably do 10 to 12 hours of coaching a day because it's what I like to do. My business model allows me to coach. I don't want to run a coaching business. I want to be a coach. And so I'm not lonely because I talk to pros all day long. Am I suggesting you become a coach for men?

00:27:54:09 - 00:28:25:03
Dennis
No. Please don't we have enough? Don't, don't don't screw up fiasco anymore. Go for the roof on a house. But my point is, I do get to talk to people every day. So one thing that I suggest to guys who have a job where they don't get to talk to people every day, is you're going to need to find an outing where you can talk to people.

00:28:25:05 - 00:28:43:17
Dennis
You need to find an outing where you can talk to people, and it has no effect on your on your professional life. Like when I hang out with my dudes, I don't tell them I'm a life coach for men. I definitely don't tell them my brand. I don't I don't want anybody to know who I am or what I do.

00:28:43:19 - 00:28:55:08
Dennis
I'm like, I'm just a guy. What do you do? Stuff. I'm here to just smoke a cigar, drink a diet that Dr. Pepper, and try not to roll my gene. That's what we're doing in a.

00:28:55:10 - 00:29:24:24
Dennis
So you want to try to get the opportunity to talk and listen? You want to try to have FaceTime with other people? Computers. Fine. Whatever. Online. You know, exchanges, zoom meetings, whatever is fine, but in person is always best if there's a way for you to do something that's actually physical, even better. Make sure it's nobody who is associated with your work.

00:29:25:00 - 00:29:51:10
Dennis
It's a good idea to have an avatar that is separate from your work. Avatar just a friend. Avatar. And as you said, about 90 hours to become a good friend and 200 hours to become a best friend, don't be thinking along those lines. Instead, I would just be hanging out until it fell off. And then ask yourself.

00:29:51:12 - 00:29:55:15
Dennis
Like.

00:29:55:17 - 00:30:26:08
Dennis
I would keep it a low commitment environment so that if you decided to drop out like a BJJ class or something, so that if you decided to drop out there wasn't but hurt, like, are you breaking up with people? Know what I mean? Now here's a question for you. Given that, and I still haven't addressed the one liner space, given that, what would you say you currently do or have done that satisfies that criteria?

00:30:26:10 - 00:31:00:14
Andrew
Well, that start in the men's group with the divorced guys. We have a standing meeting every three weeks. We do like man questions. Well, once a quarter or so we'll go take a weekend or be Airbnb someplace, light a fire, cook some meat over it, go on a hike. Everyone kind of bring some food. Everybody plans a meal, buddy plans and activity, throughout it and just kind of gets everybody outside their comfort zone a little bit.

00:31:00:16 - 00:31:14:01
Andrew
So right now, that's probably the only outlet outside of, like, playing pickleball. Or volleyball. So your own sports.

00:31:14:06 - 00:31:28:13
Dennis
So it's it's like it was. Is that a Wisconsin thing? The volleyball I've got another Luke. I've got another client. And in Wisconsin at least another client. And he's also in like two volleyball teams. Is that like a thing?

00:31:28:15 - 00:31:37:15
Andrew
I don't know. I've never lived outside of Wisconsin, but it is a thing here. Yeah, like I sometimes I played 2 or 3 days a week, sometimes on my knees and all jacked up.

00:31:37:17 - 00:31:50:05
Dennis
What are you. You're six. Five, right? Yeah, I see that. I see that, yeah. I think if I were six five, I'd probably go a spike and a ball into somebody's top of somebody's head to.

00:31:50:07 - 00:31:52:03
Andrew
Yeah. I played in college, man. I played.

00:31:52:05 - 00:31:52:17
Dennis
Oh, did.

00:31:52:17 - 00:31:54:03
Andrew
Yeah, I did it.

00:31:54:05 - 00:32:20:09
Dennis
Yeah. Okay. So my question who's interviewing? Who answered my question was, yeah. What have you done? Now? I'm going to be totally honest with you. Your men's group sounds like my nightmare. The moment you lost me at planning activities, I'm like, hell no, I'm not planning any activities. Like, for me. Like, even my Jeep group I'm a part of.

00:32:20:09 - 00:32:43:08
Dennis
Like, now I'm apparently part of two local Jeep groups that do organize rides, and I actually don't want to go on the organized ride. It just seems like too many people, too many personalities, too much commit. And I'm like, I'm going to do work six days a week. I don't want to dedicate one of my days during the week to doing something that's going to leave me like, like exhausted.

00:32:43:08 - 00:33:01:12
Dennis
It's going to drain my like, introvert freaking battery I need. Like, if I hang out with people, I need another day or two to recharge from that. You don't have that,

00:33:01:14 - 00:33:03:13
Andrew
I mean, I see where you coming from.

00:33:03:15 - 00:33:06:14
Dennis
You could say you don't. I mean, it's not like. Oh, you're you're.

00:33:06:14 - 00:33:35:17
Andrew
No, no, no, I just am, I am, I'm analyzing it. Right. It's like, I don't think I have that is. But I mean there's yeah, that is I think because I isolate so much like having that time to, to kind of connect and just get out, be in the woods and just kind of be out for my kids and I'll somewhere else.

00:33:35:17 - 00:34:02:24
Andrew
It's it it's always like in nature. So I think that for me, I have to like seek out being in the woods and being outside and that kind of thing. Yeah, I live in Madison, Wisconsin, which is, you know, a little bit too big of a city for me. So having that clean, that element is recharging for me, and I do the planning and stuff takes a lot out of me, and I don't enjoy that aspect of it, but someone's got to do it.

00:34:03:01 - 00:34:06:15
Andrew
Otherwise it's otherwise it's not. Nothing's going to happen.

00:34:06:17 - 00:34:10:07
Dennis
I you're just a bunch of dudes sitting around going, what are we all doing there? Yeah.

00:34:10:10 - 00:34:26:10
Andrew
Right. Yeah. So I don't enjoy it. I just it's necessary. And then if, I know if I don't do it, it's not going to get done. Or if I let somebody else do it, then I'm going to be doing a bunch of shit that I don't want to do. So I'm just at least I'm in control of this.

00:34:26:13 - 00:35:00:23
Dennis
Yeah, yeah. No, I feel that. So let's talk about the loneliness piece. I think that in my experience, when any time I've lived alone and I mean, I, I work with a lot of guys who are, Yeah. Who are who are currently, either in a relationship but no kids or even, like, not in a relationship.

00:35:00:23 - 00:35:21:18
Dennis
So, you know, they'll be home on a Friday night with the clock ticking on the wall, feeling FOMO because they know stuff's going on out there and they're not doing it. It doesn't even matter if they're interested in doing it or not. It's just the fact that they feel like they're just they're not connected, you know, they're not home.

00:35:21:20 - 00:35:54:11
Dennis
So it's nice. Yeah. No, this is great. I've got my apartment on my house, you know, got my dog or whatever. Tall, clean, smells good. Watching some TV. This is great. And so that's where you end up with guys who, who, who use, like, these dopamine traps. I'm thinking of one guy in particular right now. I mean, I've got a bunch of clients, but I'm thinking of this one guy in particular.

00:35:54:13 - 00:36:26:19
Dennis
Is he single? Is in his early 40s. Tall, handsome guy, definitely eligible. Lives in a great place. Not just a great, like, home, but part of the world. And I think he's an eligible bachelor. Like, for real. And he is somebody who is trying to avoid the trappings of a dude living by himself. What is that? You know what it is.

00:36:26:19 - 00:37:03:13
Dennis
It's the same crap. It's video games. It's doomscrolling. It's comfort food. Because, like snacking or whatever, it's forcing yourself to do exercise. It's, you know, you get full an internet full of like, porn or like, you know, social media, your algorithm quickly turns into, like, it's an ass if you're not careful. Like, how did that happen? Yeah. This is weird.

00:37:03:15 - 00:37:33:12
Dennis
This is this is uncanny. It's like on every app, this happens. You know, and so this is a dude, for instance, who I think no coaching really benefits from just once a week. Haven't been a guy that knows everything about him. And it is. It's the bro coach approach, which is not like. Yes. Hello and welcome to our session.

00:37:33:12 - 00:37:58:05
Dennis
We have 50 minutes, so I'm going to need you to lie on the couch and let's pick up where we were last week. Let's talk about your mother. You know, it's yeah, it's yeah, she was a bitch, and my dad was never around. You know, it's not that. I'll talk to guys, dude. I'll have a whole session sometimes where I have an agenda, but I see that it just wants to, like, you know, talk about something.

00:37:58:05 - 00:38:25:03
Dennis
It's on his mind. The next thing you know, we're talking about, I don't know, frickin basketball or, It doesn't matter. Politics. You know, I think guys benefit from being able to share ideas, laugh, joke, be in a space where they can say locker room stuff and not get shut down for it. I think it's a big part of being a guy, you know.

00:38:25:03 - 00:38:45:20
Dennis
May I if if I can put my foot in my mouth, I'll find a way to do it. And that's all I feel like that's almost part of my charm. It's like whatever, you know, sorry. I'm. I'm from the 70s, 80s and 90s, you know? So, you know, it is what it is. If you don't like it, tune out.

00:38:45:22 - 00:39:04:11
Dennis
Oh. You're going to cancel me? I don't think so, because you're probably not listening to me to begin with, so guys need that now. How do you battle loneliness? What is? Because we don't want to be lonely and we don't want to be needy. How do you battle loneliness? You've been with me for a minute. How do we battle loneliness here?

00:39:04:11 - 00:39:07:19
Dennis
Andrew?

00:39:07:21 - 00:39:12:01
Andrew
For me, it's. It's figuring out how to be okay with yourself. Like.

00:39:12:03 - 00:39:16:22
Dennis
What does that even mean, though? Like, what is that?

00:39:16:24 - 00:39:45:19
Andrew
I mean, you can't tell the story where it's like, before I fell, you know, most of my worth was defined by what I was doing, what I was achieving, and I didn't. And it sounds super corny and I. But I didn't love myself right. I didn't like being by myself. So I would always try to be with find, you know, find a woman to, like, be with, to like, it's like, oh, if I love her enough, she'll love me back.

00:39:45:19 - 00:40:12:10
Andrew
And then I'll feel loved by loving her right. And kind of loving my way out of it. So what I learned is, is how do you just hold space and how to, you know, how to have those have a new system? You know, I have a system towards, like, you're not going down rabbit holes. You shouldn't.

00:40:12:13 - 00:40:26:11
Andrew
And, you know, a lot of times when you're alone, like the difference between being alone and lonely, right? So I was like, okay, I'm okay being alone, right? Because I like myself.

00:40:26:13 - 00:40:37:04
Andrew
You know, it takes a lot of work to kind of, program all of that stuff, from years of not liking yourself. So.

00:40:37:06 - 00:41:06:19
Dennis
Yeah. So it's funny about that. Years of not liking yourself. So what I've learned is a lot of guys collect whether they realize they're doing it or not, they collect every, criticism that's ever been made. And it goes into a sort of a loop and it plays subconsciously. Now I'll get the young client who's like, I don't do that.

00:41:06:19 - 00:41:32:20
Dennis
And I be like, dude, I literally just said subconsciously. So you're telling me you're conscious of what's happening subconsciously? Well, no, I just mean that I don't think I'm like really that down on myself. And, I'll be perceiving the behavior. And the behavior is like, this is somebody who's judgmental, this somebody who's competitive. This is someone who's constantly, equating their, value with performance.

00:41:33:00 - 00:42:04:00
Dennis
This is somebody who doesn't seem to give or receive unconditional love, or get that idea, even the word love, they're like, it's, you know, like I said, it makes them uncomfortable to talk about self-love. They're like, what is that? Involve a mirror and some lotion, you know, and. Right. Yeah. And it's easier for them to say I'm a fucking idiot than it is for them to say I'm a really good guy.

00:42:04:02 - 00:42:26:12
Dennis
Yeah. Now, so one of the games that I play as a coach is trying to teach people to father their inner child. I have yet to me, the dude who doesn't have work to do in that area, you could tell me, had an awesome dad. You could tell me you had an abusive dad. You could tell me you had a negligent dad.

00:42:26:12 - 00:42:55:17
Dennis
You could tell me you had no dad. I am always seeing opportunities with the guys who I coach to help them to wrap their head around the idea that there's some fathering that they can do in the direction of their inner child that will liberate them. Now, what I've learned, and I'm I know where we're at for time.

00:42:55:17 - 00:43:25:11
Dennis
So I want to stick the landing on this, this podcast thing that we're doing in, one of the things that I've learned about fathering your inner child is. Being okay with being unprotected. Like, hey, I'm going to take off work today, but not in a, like, hide from your boss kind of way. Just a you know what?

00:43:25:11 - 00:44:00:13
Dennis
I'm declaring a holiday. Screw it without feeling guilty, or I'm going to take a two week hiatus and I'm just going to do whatever the hell I want, whether I go somewhere or to staycation and I bedrock for two straight weeks, and I just do nothing but solves chess puzzles on my phone. Yeah. Now get up to use the bathroom, get a drink of water, get right back to the couch like one of the things that's really hard for my guys to do is to allow themselves to be okay with downtime.

00:44:00:15 - 00:44:09:01
Dennis
So that's if you can be okay with that. That's a start to.

00:44:09:03 - 00:44:54:07
Dennis
We have a lot of self-talk. Everybody's constantly running a subconscious script. It's like you're badger, badger, badger, badger. Bad. I wasn't joking when I said that. There's this sort of tape loop that's constantly going that says, well, that's just repeating everything you've ever heard. That was negative. So in this coaching culture, we intentionally self validate, I will sit there and I will if I catch myself slipping into darkness and catching a bad one before I let it get weird, I will just start running a positive script to overwrite the shit script that's trying to take a hold of me.

00:44:54:09 - 00:45:14:14
Dennis
And I'll just say, and you know this because you're not. No, no, no, Jack, did this culture. I'll say you were happy, you were healthy. You were wealthy. You're strong. You were happy. You were healthy. You are wealthy. You were strong. And if I'm really down on myself, I'll pull out the big guns and I'll hit them with an 11 piece whammy.

00:45:14:14 - 00:45:38:04
Dennis
I'll say, you are good. You are kind. You are gentle. You are patient. You are peaceful. You are humble. You are loving. You are blessed. You are healthy. You are wealthy. You are strong. And I'll run that like windshield wipers to just keep the shit off of my mind's eye. That's not working. I'll drop and do some push ups, then I'll drop and do some more.

00:45:38:07 - 00:46:13:13
Dennis
Then I'll do some body weight squats. Then I'll grab a mop and marble floor. I'll go outside and I'll pick up dog crap in the yard or anything. Eventually, if you lean into that loneliness. You will come out the other side of that, and then you'll start to be stingy with your own time, because once you beat the on lays and you start enjoying the isolation, now you're going to be careful who you let into that, because you don't want somebody to come screw it up.

00:46:13:15 - 00:46:42:04
Dennis
And usually the people that who I look forward to share time with are people who I feel are put in the work, in the way I'm putting in the work. So I'm not looking for anybody to be my friend. I'm actually not. I'm my friend and I'm looking for somebody who's their friend. And I would like to share space with somebody that's like, just like me.

00:46:42:10 - 00:46:58:08
Dennis
I'm Dennis, I'm my own friend, you're so-and-so, you're your own friend. And, yeah, like couple of kids on the playground. Let's go hang out, let's play. And then, maybe I'll see you. Maybe I won't do this. You feel me on that?

00:46:58:10 - 00:47:00:17
Andrew
Yeah, I do.

00:47:00:19 - 00:47:06:20
Dennis
Because a friend in need is a pest.

00:47:06:22 - 00:47:08:11
Andrew
Nobody wants to be a pest.

00:47:08:13 - 00:47:36:09
Dennis
I got enough. I got a dozen little baby bird mouths to feed without having someone glom on to me as my quote friend. And now I'm like, I just have another person around me, but I don't like being lonely. Oh, excuse me, I don't like I recognize that it's beneficial to share, to spend time with other dudes. So if you're a guy and you're listening to this, here are some things you can do.

00:47:36:11 - 00:47:57:06
Dennis
Pick a hobby. It's the best way to do it. Pick a hobby. One of the ways I got myself in trouble is I like shooting pool. So the next thing you know, I got on the pool league. But pool. Pool leagues happen in bars. Bars involve alcohol. And the next thing you know, it can get a little bit ugly.

00:47:57:06 - 00:48:31:15
Dennis
So make sure you pick something healthy right? Maybe a buddy that you want to lift with, maybe a, like I know guys who like go cycling together and they like, that's their jam motorcycles for the longest time. I love, you know, just being part of a group of dudes who ride and just say, hey, who's around this weekend and going riding anything physical, organized sports is cool, but that can get a little complicated.

00:48:31:17 - 00:48:57:23
Dennis
You don't have to be all that, you can also get competitive. Like I said, the g ping thing, even like, I got guys who, you know, are more on the nerdy side and they go do Magic The Gathering. You know, they, they go do that thing, or they go to the game nights or they go through darts or whatever.

00:48:58:00 - 00:49:45:15
Dennis
I think the answer to the loneliness epidemic involves fewer opportunities to engage with each other. Offline. And having the opportunity to become totally holed up. So if you find yourself holed up, number one, get through it. Practice meditation, exercise, be your own best friend. If you have any bad habits, knock those off because that the dopamine traps are going to kill you.

00:49:45:17 - 00:50:14:08
Dennis
Finally, once you're good with yourself and you're like, yeah, I'm in a healthy little routine and a holding pattern. Go do crap you like and put your vibe, you know, your your, your antenna out there and see if there's anybody else who feels like you, which is just a chill guy out here doing a thing, but not meeting and not looking for anything.

00:50:14:10 - 00:50:26:09
Dennis
But what if he's Republican and I'm a Democrat and don't talk about fucking politics, dude. Nobody cares. Just go hang out with some pros. Am I right?

00:50:26:11 - 00:50:28:03
Andrew
Hell yeah.

00:50:28:05 - 00:50:40:01
Dennis
Yeah. All right, so if you were somebody listening to this, what would your takeaway be from this? From this session?

00:50:40:03 - 00:51:02:11
Andrew
So step to friendship. One. Figure out how to be your own best friend. Or you actually like the man you're looking at in the mirror. Step two go do stuff you want to do. There happens to be other other dudes doing it at the same time.

00:51:02:13 - 00:51:04:04
Dennis
Yeah, it.

00:51:04:06 - 00:51:31:20
Andrew
And get outside your comfort zone and just just go like and you know, just take action. On those things. Right. And and and not have it be work related. Right. Because I think that especially the high performing, high achieving guys too, is like, well, I I'll just go do business stuff with other business people. Then we're friends, you know, and it's like, well, that's a little sticky.

00:51:31:22 - 00:52:06:04
Dennis
It's a lot sticky. Trust me, I know. And the three of that, like you said, one, hang out and be your own best friend. You don't want to go. Do you want to go? You want to go hang out with people because you want to, not because you're because you're needy. You want to have something to offer. You don't go out because you're trying to get something from somebody else to do crap you enjoy.

00:52:06:06 - 00:52:43:09
Dennis
Three if you invariably end up in a situation where there is a sticking point, there's some sort of conflict of personality where somebody gets their feelings hurt or whatever, recognize that as an opportunity to work on yourself. You know, it's a very, opportune little social dojo to work on not being but hurt and not being a hater and not gossiping and not too good.

00:52:43:12 - 00:53:14:14
Dennis
Ball. Don't rub, but just kind of being like, what are under the bridge, bro? Boom. See you on the next one. That's it. Right? Right now it's literally. Well, listen, on that note, I'm Dennis, I am the bro coach. I'm a guy who has been coaching for a long time. 55 years old as of December 20th, 2025.

00:53:14:16 - 00:53:45:05
Dennis
And I've been doing this forever. So if you are interested in the culture of man up life coaching, if you are interested in following us and hearing what other bro's think, feel and are talking about, we would love you to like, subscribe and do all that crap. But otherwise, thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed it and we'll see you on the next one.